Kendall area advice (Miami, Westchester, Sweetwater: 2009, apartments, houses)

[crisp444]

Originally Posted by lolita305

In the end, what people care is how many hispanics live in an area, the "speak Spanish" factor not their skin color.

When you say the "speak Spanish" factor, do you mean that people care that others speak Spanish or that they do not speak English? If you are referring to the latter, people should have no problem with Kendall, as nearly everyone - except some recent immigrants and some very old people - speaks English. If you are referring to the former, then I guess some people would be bothered by me - a white American who is about to earn his JD, keeps a nice apartment/property, and sometimes gives food/baked goods to new neighbors - because I speak Spanish.

And you'd better believe that skin color is a big deal to some people. White Cubans and black Dominicans may get very different treatment in certain areas of this country by certain people.

[crisp444]

Originally Posted by cuba libre

as well as the ever-encroaching Refugee, or "ref" influence, which is sometimes nauseating, especially on hot days.

Encroaching??! There ya go, an implicit anti-Hispanic reference. You changed your "speakie Spanish" or "Spanish whatever" wording to "refugee" before I got a chance to quote you. The way you group together "Hispanics" without much regard to background, socioeconomic status, and educational achievement is very patronizing; your bias shows clear through to close readers of your posts like myself.

Originally Posted by cuba libre

West of 874 is a glamorized Sweetwater with newer stucco and pinker terra cotta tiles.

I have to agree with lolita in that sometimes I get the idea that you really do not have experience in Kendall at all. I have repeatedly mentioned - and have received no proper acknowledgement on your part - Caluca CC, The Crossings, The Village at Kendale, and other nice neighborhoods that make up a substantial percentage of the area west of SR 874. The only part of "Kendall" that appears a bit like Sweetwater is a collection of complexes by Bird Lakes Park - and that is north of where Kendall technically ends!

[cuba libre]

Originally Posted by crisp444

Encroaching??! There ya go, an implicit anti-Hispanic reference. You changed your "speakie Spanish" or "Spanish whatever" wording to "refugee" before I got a chance to quote you. The way you group together "Hispanics" without much regard to background, socioeconomic status, and educational achievement is very patronizing; your bias shows clear through to close readers of your posts like myself.

They all watch Telemundo, no? And Univision. And "el nuevo Herald". And futbol.


You claim a false moral ground that eradication of American culture, no English, cars on lawns, and white flight is somehow an "acceptable byproduct" of urban living in Miami (or Kendall). What about the hundreds of thousands of whites who left Miami for the reasons I just stated? Does that make them all meanies like me? Or racists?

Originally Posted by crisp444

I have to agree with lolita in that sometimes I get the idea that you really do not have experience in Kendall at all. I have repeatedly mentioned - and have received no proper acknowledgement on your part - Caluca CC, The Crossings, The Village at Kendale, and other nice neighborhoods that make up a substantial percentage of the area west of SR 874. The only part of "Kendall" that appears a bit like Sweetwater is a collection of complexes by Bird Lakes Park - and that is north of where Kendall technically ends!

I never lived in Kendall, but I went to FIU for 4 years, so I visited Kendall quite often. I wouldn't shake a stick at most of those areas... Especially the Crossings across from Kendall Airport, which is nothing special, IMO. Calusa C.C. is another pre-Andrew gem that has seen better days. I will give you credit that these areas have more trees, and slightly larger lots than most of the newer West-Dade develpments.

[♥♥PRINC3Ss♥♥]

Originally Posted by crisp444

When you say the "speak Spanish" factor, do you mean that people care that others speak Spanish or that they do not speak English? If you are referring to the latter, people should have no problem with Kendall, as nearly everyone - except some recent immigrants and some very old people - speaks English.

I think it's the first one. According the US Census what makes you hispanic is your ability to speak Spanish. How people interpret that information is up to them (think Cuba Libre ) We all prejudge people and make assumptions, it's human nature, it's what we do with those assumptions that matters.

I agree that most people in Kendall speak English.

[crisp444]

Originally Posted by cuba libre

You claim a false moral ground that eradication of American culture, no English, cars on lawns, and white flight is somehow an "acceptable byproduct" of urban living in Miami (or Kendall). What about the hundreds of thousands of whites who left Miami for the reasons I just stated? Does that make them all meanies like me? Or racists?

Allow me to quote myself from another thread:
"What has happened over many years (not just recently) in Miami-Dade County is not "white flight" in the traditional sense because it has occurred very slowly and has produced neighborhoods with the some of the best Hispanic/non-Hispanic white residential integration of any metro area in the United States. What this means is that the average Hispanic resident lives in a neighborhood with a percentage of non-Hispanic white residents that almost exactly matches the countywide average, and that the average non-Hispanic white resident lives in a neighborhood with a percentage of Hispanic residents that is very close to the countywide average as well. I would be glad to demonstrate this with statistics if anyone here would like that.

Technically, many neighborhoods have experienced no "white flight" at all because (if speaking of "white" racially) most Hispanics in Miami-Dade County are white and moved into already existing non-Hispanic white neighborhoods. What this produced is a drop in non-Hispanic residents, an (often dramatic) increase in Hispanic residents, but often no drop in white residents at all. What happened in Miami-Dade had to do with shifting demographics and is very distinct from "white flight" in its traditional sense (Newark, Detroit, etc.)"

Now that your little "white flight" idea is out of the way, how about I address possible reasons for the drop in non-Hispanic white population in Miami-Dade County? I read a few years ago that the average American family moves every six years. This is often motivated for job relocation or the desire to be closer to members of the extended family. These are two of the main reasons. If you want to talk specifically about Kendall and some other reasons( note that east Kendall has not changed demographically much, central Kendall has changed a bit, and west Kendall has changed a lot), many people left the area after Andrew and never returned. The Hispanic proportion of the population increased, as it seems that a disproportionate amount of the people who never returned were non-Hispanic whites. When new housing developments were built in west Kendall during the 1990's and 2000's, strong Colombian and Venezuelan (and to a lesser extent Nicarauguan) immigration of middle class people (and marketing to these groups) supported sales of many of these newly-built homes. Once again, the Hispanic proportion of the population increased. All the while, many long-time residents (non-Hispanic whites and to a lesser extent, Cuban-Americans) relocated to other places for a variety of reasons, some of which are listed above.

I will not deny that some of the people who moved out of Kendall (especially west Kendall) did so because they did not like the increasing immigrant population. However, many people moved for other reasons, and many have stayed. The area has not gone down-hill; aesthetically it is just as nice now as it ever was, for all practical purposes. You hear a lot more Spanish in Kendall (again, especially in west Kendall) nowadays than you did in the 1980's or even 1990's. However, most of the new residents are middle class and keep well-maintained properties. Furthermore, all of the young people becoming fluent in English and assimilated to American culture and society. You will find an "old-timer" Anglo-American/Jewish-American/Cuban-American who doesn't mind the new changes for every "old-timer" you find who complains about them and/or has recently left the area.

To suggest that non-Hispanic whites have abandoned Kendall due to an "encroaching" third world element of disorder and uncleanliness shows clearly that your understanding of the Kendall area and how it has evolved is faulty, at best. Don't mess with someone who knows the area and is prepared to defend it against barrages of nonsense like some of what you write on this forum.

[cuba libre]

Well, Kendall must have an epidemic of "white" people who refuse to speak English...LOL

Here's a salvo for you. This says Kendall is only 17% white-non Hispanic. What about the "other" category there? That's for people like Barak Obama, so you won't find any 'whites' there! 16,000 out of Kendall's estimated 76,000 people are foreign born non-citizens! 1 in 5 people in Kendall are foreign nationals! I'll bet you most of these people are from banana countries, too! Kendall FL 33193 Demographics, Kendall 33193 Population Statistics



Kendall, FL - Demographics

White
16.9%
Black
2.5%

Latino
55.3%

Asian
2.4%

Other
22.9%


Kendall FL (Florida) ZIP codes, schools, jobs, demographics & more

[crisp444]

We have been over this already - that website's statistics are highly suspect; I trust those of the Census over what you have posted. Here are the 2000 and 2007 census percentage statistics for the "Kendall CDP" area (all of Kendall east of the Turnpike, basically), side-by-side:

Race 2000 2007
White 86.5 85.6
Black 4.5 3.8
Am. Indian 0.1 0.0
Asian 3.1 3.4
Other Race 2.8 6.0
2+ Races 3.1 1.3

Hispanic/Latino ethnicity: 49.9 and 58.4, respectively.

In 2000, 41.6% of Kendall residents were non-Hispanic white; the census has not yet published that number for 2007, but it is likely around 36% given that the there has been an 8.5 percentage point increase in Hispanics but that maybe half of them are white (some of the growth of the Hispanic population is likely in the "other race" category)

Kendall west of the Turnpike is not included in the "Kendall CDP" information above. Only 2000 census information is available for that area. To break it down for you in 2000 numbers, by area of west Kendall, with the only two numbers about which you probably really care:

The Crossings
white: 85.2% (of which 34% were non-Hispanic)
Hispanic of any race: 56.1%

Country Walk
white: 77.6% (of which 28.6% were non-Hispanic)
Hispanic of any race: 56.1%

The Hammocks
white: 78.6% (of which 23% were non-Hispanic)
Hispanic of any race: 65.3%

Kendale Lakes
white: 87.0% (of which 18.9% were non-Hispanic)
Hispanic of any race: 76.6%

Kendall between Kendall Dr. and Coral Way, west of SW 147th Ave.
white: 83.4% (of which 15.3% were non-Hispanic)
Hispanic of any race: 79.0%

Three Lakes:
white: 72.4% (of which 31.6% were non-Hispanic)
Hispanic of any race: 47.8%

Clearly, west of the Turnpike is less non-Hispanic white and more Hispanic, but a more realistic number for non-Hispanic white population in total percentage west of the Turnpike would likely be about 25% or so. The statistics that you have posted must be specifically for some small area of "Kendall" far west of the Turnpike (indeed, zipcode 33193, which is far west Kendall - how sneaky of you to post the most heavily "Hispanic" zipcode under the guise of "Kendall"!), because neither Kendall west of the Turnpike nor Kendall as a whole is only 17% non-Hispanic white. The "other race" number of 22.9% that you have posted cannot be found in ANY census records and must reflect some kind of error.

[cuba libre]

We're not arguing over who is white or not (per the gov't's antiquated definition)... we're arguing over who is Hispanic or not.


Go to bed on this:

-1 in 5 Kendalians are foreign nationals. Honk! honk!



-Probably fewer than 20% of people in Kendall are non-Hispanic (per your own numbers, and mine)
-Kendall is in the middle of the 'most Hispanic' part of Miami (West-Dade)
-Meanwhile, 67% of Miami-Dade County speaks Spanish 'at home'

[crisp444]

Originally Posted by cuba libre

-1 in 5 Kendalians are foreign nationals. Honk! honk!

Stop posting just the one graph for the 33193 area code. That is in far NW Kendall and is the most heavily "foreign" area! You need to be fair and post those charts for 33176, 33186, and 33196 as well. Also, part of NE Kendall is in 33156 (but most of 33156 is Pinecrest, not Kendall). So, to be far, post ALL of them. You will see much lower "foreign national" numbers in the other zipcodes, save for 33196, which has a lot of Colombian and Venezuelan nationals.

Originally Posted by cuba libre

-Probably fewer than 20% of people in Kendall are non-Hispanic (per your own numbers, and mine)

I have never said such a thing. What I did say, however, was that Kendall east of the Turnpike, in 2007, is about 36% non-Hispanic white and that Kendall west of the Turnpike, in 2007, is about 25% non-Hispanic white. I never said 20%, and I certainly would never say that for the TOTAL non-Hispanic population.

Originally Posted by cuba libre

-Kendall is in the middle of the 'most Hispanic' part of Miami (West-Dade)

And... your point? I look to the stastics and not to generalizations like "West Dade = more Hispanic, so let's add onto the Hispanic numbers even more"

Originally Posted by cuba libre

-Meanwhile, 67% of Miami-Dade County speaks Spanish 'at home'

I speak English and Spanish at home. Many of my friends grew up in homes where English was spoken most of the time and Spanish some of the time, and those households are counted into "Spanish spoken at home." The 67% figure does not correspond with "who cannot speak English" or even with "who does not speak English at home." There's too much overlap.

[crisp444]

I'll post them for you (all charts are from moveto.com neighborhood statistics)

33156 (NE Kendall and Pinecrest)


33176 (MDC area, Falls area, Killian HS area, PLUS Richmond Heights)


33186 (Calusa CC, Crossings, Kendale Lakes, Three Lakes)


33196 (Hammocks, far west Kendall south of Kendall Drive)