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Old 01-05-2009, 05:33 AM
 
Location: The Shires
2,257 posts, read 558,924 times
Reputation: 1050
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cougar Beach View Post
This is a problem. You make Castro into some kind of omnipotent entity, when he's just a man who started out with a ragtag army that grew while he was in the jungle. Even several years later, he didn't have an army of millions.

Castro was able to over throw the government of Cuba, but you act as if the act of overthrowing the government of Cuba is a scientific impossibility.

If the hundred of thousands of Cubans who fled Cuba early in Castro's reign would have resisted, along with the many more who opposed Castro but didn't leave, Castro's government couldn't have functioned. Do you really think he would have murdered 2 million dissidents, as one Cuban recently told me (with a straight face)? These are the same people who thought that the Bay of Pigs invasion would have worked. I'm not sure what the magic was in that case.

I have news for you: Castro is not a god, and he never was. You'll never know what the Cuban people could have done; they didn't try. They bailed out as fast as they could.
Great post -- and I'm glad you had the balls to speak the truth.

Castro was one man. If all those exiles would have chosen to fight instead of jump ship & bail to Miami, chances are, Castro wouldn't have stood a cat in hell's chance of staying in power.

Another issue is that these people VOTED for Castro. He didn't seize power via a bloody coup. This is why I have never understood why it is OUR problem to grant so many undocumented immigrants free passes into the United States, while we turn everyone else away, including Haitians, who are *far* worse off than Cubans (just look at the murder rate in Haiti & their life expectancy).

It's time to end the "wet foot, dry foot" nonsense, or at least grant the same amnesty to Haitians. This is nothing more than an outdated political statement against Communism.
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Old 01-05-2009, 05:35 AM
 
706 posts, read 917,758 times
Reputation: 297
A crime is a crime. Fifty years (or sixty in the case of Israel) is not such a long time.
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Old 01-05-2009, 06:58 AM
 
Location: Lots of sun and palm trees with occasional hurricane :)
8,298 posts, read 10,524,714 times
Reputation: 6933
Quote:
Originally Posted by vpcats View Post
Wow! Great to SEE you again! Hope you come back more often this year.

Anyway.... I don't know about the Cuban passport being nulled. I haven't tried to renew it and I haven't been to Cuba BUT, I've been told that IF I wanted to go to Cuba, I'd have to renew it and enter Cuba with the Cuban passport. Maybe that's because as an American I'd have to go through another country and cannot travel as American? Or maybe it's the other way around.

Don't know. Cross that bridge when I get to it I guess. I can always become Spaniard.

I was thinking about this on my way to work.

What would happen to Cubans with a passport pre 1970 and no other passport? Not US citizen, not another country's citizen. How would they travel, especially with the new travel rules? You must be able to renew regardless of when it was obtained, I would think.

Anybody know the veracity of these passport rules?
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Old 01-05-2009, 06:58 AM
 
672 posts, read 939,652 times
Reputation: 264
Default Misconceptions and lack of knowledge of the truth

The ignorance here is astounding.
-
Of course there should be no wet foot/dry foot policy.
For anyone.
There is a Historical reason for it: President Kennedy.
He felt, rightfully, very guilty after the Bay of Pigs.
Air cover had been promised and it was not delivered (it's more complicated than that, but off topic.)
-

Now, as to staying staying in Cuba and fighting, two points:
The biggest operation in the CIAs History, prior to Vietnam was in South Fl, under various names, including operation Mongoose.
Many Cubans fought Fidel during the 60s and into the early 70s by making sabotage raids and guerilla warfare, leaving South Fl in fast boats converted with M60s and some GE specially designed boats. They left Miami from unlikely places, Coral Gables by Riviera drive. The biggest CIA station was around Krome ave.
Of course, this all misses the point, the guys in FL were worse than Castro. Masfferer amongst others was an assassin, murderer and torturer. So of course, the US gov / CIA backed his group.
But there is even another point that you missed, the part about staying in Cuba and fighting Fidel.
Fine words, doubt you would have the courage to back this up though.
How did this work out for the Germans that opposed Hitler, a few did make good. A few. Oppose the Khemer Rouge, Stalin, Mao?
See, maybe unlike you I do know the consequences of your rhetoric. Many of my great uncles died fighting fascism in Spain against Franco when it was unpopular to do that.
To me all this Cuban bashing amounts to one thing, spoiled grapes. Cubans have done very well here and a lot of people can't stand it.
Period.
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Old 01-05-2009, 06:59 AM
 
Location: Lots of sun and palm trees with occasional hurricane :)
8,298 posts, read 10,524,714 times
Reputation: 6933
Quote:
Originally Posted by BCreass View Post
Great post -- and I'm glad you had the balls to speak the truth.

Castro was one man. If all those exiles would have chosen to fight instead of jump ship & bail to Miami, chances are, Castro wouldn't have stood a cat in hell's chance of staying in power.

Another issue is that these people VOTED for Castro. He didn't seize power via a bloody coup. This is why I have never understood why it is OUR problem to grant so many undocumented immigrants free passes into the United States, while we turn everyone else away, including Haitians, who are *far* worse off than Cubans (just look at the murder rate in Haiti & their life expectancy).

It's time to end the "wet foot, dry foot" nonsense, or at least grant the same amnesty to Haitians. This is nothing more than an outdated political statement against Communism.
You should move to Haiti and fix their problems.
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Old 01-05-2009, 07:01 AM
 
Location: Lots of sun and palm trees with occasional hurricane :)
8,298 posts, read 10,524,714 times
Reputation: 6933
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbravo View Post
The ignorance here is astounding.
First there should be no wet foot/dry foot policy for anyone.
Second, on the staying in Cuba and fighting, two points:
The biggest operation in the CIAs History, prior to Vietnam was in South Fl, under various names, including operation Mongoose many Cubans fought Fidel during the 60s and into the early 70s by making sabotage raids and guerilla warfare, leaving South Fl in fast boats converted with M60s and some GE specially designed boats. They left Miami from unlikely places, Coral Gables by Riviera drive. The biggest CIA station was around Krome ave.
Of course, this all misses the point, the guys in FL were worse than Castro. Masfferer amongst others was an assassin, murderer and torturer. So of course, the US gov / CIA backed his group.
But there is even another point that you missed, the staying in Cuba and fighting Fidel. Fine words, doubt you would have the courage to back this up though.
How did this work out for the Germans that opposed Hitler, a few did make good. A few. Oppose the Khemer Rouge, Stalin, Mao?
See, maybe unlike you I do know the consequences of your rhetoric. Many of my great uncles died fighting fascism in Spain against Franco when it was unpopular to do that.
To me all this Cuban bashing amounts to one thing, spoiled grapes. Cubans have done very well here and a lot of people can't stand it.
Period.

I do believe I agree with you, especially the last statement.
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Old 01-05-2009, 07:15 AM
 
672 posts, read 939,652 times
Reputation: 264
Quote:
Originally Posted by vpcats View Post
I do believe I agree with you, especially the last statement.
I edited for clarity.
Historically, what I posted is just that History, not my opinion.
Many here post and have never read a book on the issues.
-
-
I suggest to anybody the following books, I read both this past year and were pleasant to read:
"After Fidel" (non slanted Biography)
"Havana Nocturne." (Batista and the Mob)
-
-
For the whole CIA and Cubans and Bay of Pigs, it's more of serious read from various sources. Fascinating though, to read stuff from the former Soviet Union's perspective.
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Old 01-05-2009, 07:18 AM
 
672 posts, read 939,652 times
Reputation: 264
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pixie Dust View Post
[b]
I do believe they have freedom of speech the last time I checked. Bottom line to compare the two countries as of today's stats IMO is obsurd.
Puerto Rico is not a country.
Saying it is so doesn't make it so.
Cuba is a country.
Period.
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Old 01-05-2009, 08:14 AM
 
Location: South Beach (MB, FL)
640 posts, read 1,143,210 times
Reputation: 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by vpcats View Post
I was thinking about this on my way to work.

What would happen to Cubans with a passport pre 1970 and no other passport? Not US citizen, not another country's citizen. How would they travel, especially with the new travel rules? You must be able to renew regardless of when it was obtained, I would think.

Anybody know the veracity of these passport rules?
If they have a Cuban passport, how could they not have another country's citizenship? I don't recall that Cuba routinely pulled the citizenship of exiles. Why couldn't a person travel on a Cuban passport, still getting the requisite visas where needed, while residing in the U.S.? I know someone who was a permanent resident of the U.S. and had only an Iranian passport, and that's what he did. He traveled all over the world that way. (It was a pain to go through customs and immigration on an Iranian passport though; he has since become an American citizen. Iran doesn't recognize naturalization by another country, though, so he still needs his Iranian passport to go back there.)
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Old 01-05-2009, 08:39 AM
 
Location: South Beach (MB, FL)
640 posts, read 1,143,210 times
Reputation: 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbravo View Post
Now, as to staying staying in Cuba and fighting, two points:
The biggest operation in the CIAs History, prior to Vietnam was in South Fl, under various names, including operation Mongoose.
Many Cubans fought Fidel during the 60s and into the early 70s by making sabotage raids and guerilla warfare, leaving South Fl in fast boats converted with M60s and some GE specially designed boats. They left Miami from unlikely places, Coral Gables by Riviera drive. The biggest CIA station was around Krome ave.
Of course, this all misses the point, the guys in FL were worse than Castro. Masfferer amongst others was an assassin, murderer and torturer. So of course, the US gov / CIA backed his group.
But there is even another point that you missed, the part about staying in Cuba and fighting Fidel.
Fine words, doubt you would have the courage to back this up though.
How did this work out for the Germans that opposed Hitler, a few did make good. A few. Oppose the Khemer Rouge, Stalin, Mao?
See, maybe unlike you I do know the consequences of your rhetoric. Many of my great uncles died fighting fascism in Spain against Franco when it was unpopular to do that.
To me all this Cuban bashing amounts to one thing, spoiled grapes. Cubans have done very well here and a lot of people can't stand it.
Period.
The raids from the U.S. were a joke. The movement needed to be indigenous, not by a bunch of guys who were less democratic than Castro himself, in little boats with guns. That was a joke, but the folks participating were so deep in the tank they had no idea how ridiculous it was. Had they succeeded, Cuba would have been like Nicaragua and Guatemala in the 70's, which may have then been followed by a Sandanista-style revolution. Anyway, it wasn't going to happen.

> Fine words, doubt you would have the courage to back this up though.

You don't know me. I wouldn't be so quick to talk. Fidel, Raul, and Che did it. Are you saying they were cut from stronger fiber than the rest of us? Are they just smarter? Do only Marxist ever win? No, the Taliban succeeded in Afghanistan. Khomeni succeeded in Iran. Maybe only the people we don't like win. But wait, there was the Orange revolution in Ukraine and the Velvet Revolution in the Czech Republic. And how about the American Revolution? Wait -- does this mean that it is possible?

The people who didn't fight back got what they were guaranteed to get if they didn't fight. Is nothing worth risking death for? The soldiers (at least the American ones) in Iraq and Afghanistan risk death every day, and they do it volutarily. See, it can be done.

Comparing Castro to Hitler, Mao, Stalin, and the Khmer Rouge may make you feel better about your history, but that doesn't make it any less ridiculous. It's like getting a basketball shot blocked by one of your friends, and then saying later, "well of course, he was 9 feet tall!" Explain to me why you beleive that Castro's army and equipment were comparable to Hitler's.

I have great respect for those who died fighting fascism in Spain during the time of Franco. I'm sure you do as well. At least they tried. You can't win every battle, but at least they fought for what was right.

This has nothing to do with Cuban bashing. As far as I'm concerned, Cubans have done very well in Miami, and more power to them (plus or minus the Florida presidential election in 2000). I'm talking only about Cuba itself. For whatever reason, Cubans thing that Cuba should be a huge part of American foreign policy. That makes little sense. And that it should be a part of local politics. That makes absolutely no sense at all.

Why aren't our Cuban representatives in the U.S. Congress pushing for sanctions against China for being Communist? Maybe the U.S. should invade Beijing.

The bottom line is that if people didn't think it was worth the effort to stay in Cuba and fight, fine. But the ridiculous mythology that so many Cubans subscribe to gets old and tiresome.
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