What is happening to West Miramar?

[doggiebus]

Originally Posted by MisterNY

First the white man, then Latinos, now the Island Blacks and Africans . I just don't get it. Come to think of it, AAs don't seem to like anyone (blame game). Sad, very sad. Where is the love, and where does it end?

Hatred is learned. It only stops when children stop learning about hatred, that starts with adults.

[Wild Style]

MisterNY

Don't get me wrong, the areas you mention down here are poor/less affluent. I won't argue with you there. The ones I mentioned in my neighborhood in W.Pines are middle class/professional Caribbeans (Jamaican/Haitian/Barbadian or Bajan) (which seems to be the norm of who represent black professionals here..well the few professionals that are left). I made it clear in my post.

yep and the same is true of African American's who are doign the same sorts of stuff the less affluent Caribbean people are doing. to deny that is to deny reality.

Please you're not going to make me or anyone believe that the majority of blacks living in ghettos in South Florida are from the Caribbean . (names like Trayvon, Jamarcus, DayQwon and La'Niqua are not Jamaican, nor Haitian names ). Most of the blacks in areas like Carol City/Opa Locka/Overtown/Goulds/Homestead are majority African Americans, not Caribbeans. I've seen enough to know who is who down here at this point. African Americans are all over this country and make the majority of black ghettos. We all know that (you can't refute that).

The average black in Miami who you are referring to as "African Americans" are the descendants of Caribbeans, that's a historical fact. You can accept reality or not, that's your choice but the facts are there. As I said go to that museum, it will shed some light on that. Also using first names to justify a belief wont cut it. You have Latinos with names like Omar and Ivan, does that mean they are really Arabs and Russians? I don't think so.

Flatbush has many Caribbeans, I know. Again, most of them are not middle class, but working class, so it's more of an issue of class and education. I sent you an article in another thread about Africans and Caribbeans in college, soaring. Like it or hate it, it's the truth.

yep just as it is for African Americans who behave the same way as the these Caribbeans you are trying so hard to excuse. African American's run Atlanta and many of them are middle class to wealthy. You also have your lower economic classes there who are not doing as well. You can go to Chicago, all over NYC, DC, Philly and see the same thing. Many African Americans doing very well, some probably doing even better than most here on this forum. Then you will see some that are in the lower economic strata who behave in some negative ways, for the exact same reasons you attributed to the Caribbeans. except when it is applied to African Americans its called "excuses"

My wife's ancestry is Caribbean, and I will say, she clarified many things for me (including the seemingly unfounded hatred African Americans have for Caribbeans and Africans, which is sad beyond anyone's understanding). That's sad. My first teaching gig down here was in a majority black school. It was sad to see the way the AAs treated other blacks (caribbean/africans, from my observations), and how it was the few whites and latinos that went against the grain to show them love. That my friend, is sad.

First, my family is from West Africa. I grew up with African Americans, Latinos and West Indians and I never had any issues with any of them. My name is clearly west african and family members have thick accents. Growing up people would ask me where they are from etc. Never brought about any form of hatred against me. I showed people respect and they gave me respect. So not sure about the whole "unfounded hatred" bit. I also taught for awhile, in a area that had a strong Brazilian population. Funny enough I saw Haitian kids, Brazilians and African Americans all doing their thing. No problems what so ever that I saw. These were middle school kids (not that it makes any difference). As for what you are seeing, it probably has more to do with S. Florida and its lack of cultural interaction and exposure than anything else. As I said, up north I didn't see many of these issues.

First the white man, then Latinos, now the Island Blacks and Africans . I just don't get it. Come to think of it, AAs don't seem to like anyone (blame game). Sad, very sad. Where is the love, and where does it end?

I missed the part where you showed how AAs are blaming island blacks and africans for anything?! I think this may have more to do with your hang ups than reality?

I will check the Museum, when I get a chance. Thanks for the heads up.

I hope you and many others do. Might help to clear up a ton of misinformation/misconceptions I see floating around these forums. First step is education. I think that's a lot of the problem in South Florida (which would probably explain the problem in w. miramar". People are ignorant as sin about history and culture in South Florida.

Oh and as to who is going to school etc. I work in the higher education field. Americans as a whole are not going to school as much. Heck in engineering, medical and computer sciences departments here you are more likely to seen names like Ahmed, yang, and ghulshayr than you are to see any American name be that white, black or anything else. NPR did a great piece on the American issue and higher education and interviewed Bill Gates.

Educating ourselves on the facts makes the difference between a society of people who live among each other in harmony as opposed to a society who lives together yet hate each other.

[Leovigildo]

Wild Style

Quite interesting post. I see that you are interested in history.
I didn't know about the influence of West Indians in the Black population in Miami.
I always thought that West Indians had more education and were more socially structured, just as Colin Powell or Malcom X.
When I studied at FIU, the only blacks there were West Indians, as to Africans from Africa I've met there, nothing to do with the rest, cultured people, just like the rest.
Quite curiously, most black-black Cubans are also West Indians, from Jamaica. They were "imported" by United Fruit during the 30's.
Your posts are very interesting.

[Wild Style]

Originally Posted by Leovigildo

Wild Style

Quite interesting post. I see that you are interested in history.
I didn't know about the influence of West Indians in the Black population in Miami.
I always thought that West Indians had more education and were more socially structured, just as Colin Powell or Malcom X.
When I studied at FIU, the only blacks there were West Indians, as to Africans from Africa I've met there, nothing to do with the rest, cultured people, just like the rest.
Quite curiously, most black-black Cubans are also West Indians, from Jamaica. They were "imported" by United Fruit during the 30's.
Your posts are very interesting.

Malcolm X was 100% African American from Nebraska

It was in I believe the early part of the 1900s that the Caribbean blacks started to flow into Miami from Bahamas, Jamaica and Haiti. They came to work on farms, rail roads etc. There is a southern rapper named trick daddy, he often speaks about the history of the "African Americans" in Miami and their history/heritage.

I read a lot, I am a avid history buff. I have also taken history courses in Cuba and Mexico. I learned as you have stated about the black Cubans and their importation to the island. It was via that class I also learned that Cuba used to have a large Chinese population (also imported labor). I just like understanding other people and other cultures. Thats the only way you can remain englightend and abreast of the people around you. It is because of ignorance that you get hate and prejudice.

There were influxes of blacks from Georgia and the Carolinas to Miami too but from what I have read the biggest influence were those from the carribean. You can see it in the food the african amercains eat in Miami too. Like the conch salad and fish boil etc. All of west indian origin.

But people shouldn't get it confused. African Americans in other parts of N. America are just as talented and have contributed just as much to America as any other group. There was a place called black wall street out in the west and it was a city of very wealthy blacks. In Harlem that place also has a very rich history of affluent and politically savvy blacks (of American origin). The same goes for Atlanta and even in the coastal islands of Georgia and South Carolina. You had great literary geniuses from amongst the african american community, painters, musicians etc.

The problem is with the popularization of hip hop and its (present day hip hop) degenerate nature, that life style has been glorified and promoted in the media to the point that it is this negative culture that has come to represent African American culture in the last few decades.

As doogie said, it all goes back to ignorance and a lack of knowelge. People should take time out to really educate themselves on other people. Me personally I can get on with just about anyone from anywhere. And although I fall victim to stereo typing others, I try my best not to.

As for Africans, as a person who's famiy is from there. I assure you some African's are just as bad or worse than anything you see on tv about African Americans. But the same can be said of Columbians, Arabs, Cubans and any other group. In the 90s the largest heroin ring in the world was was a bunch of Nigerian women centered in Brooklyn NYC. My point being, stereo typing is no good.

As I always say, S. Florida has potetial but the people here need to step their game up. Stop the stereo typing, start educating yourselves and also get to know each other.

[Leovigildo]

Wild Style

I read Malcolm X's autobiography that later became a soupy biopic. He wrote that his mother were from West Indies and that she was raped by a Scot, he call him "red raping devil". Malcom was also called Red Malcom.

I believe that the main problem of AA is that the Federal Government decided to consider them "victims" and "disadvantadged minorities", and then went on to explain their reason why they are a failed society and people. Before, blacks were poor Americans fighting against opressive laws, not "perpetual victims". They had their own economies, just like other pockets of minorities. All the black economy went bust when blacks were allowed to shop anywhere.

A similar thing happened in Miami with the appearance of large franchises and malls during the 80's, many Cuban Mom and Pop shops in the SW went bust.

Yes, Cuba had a large Cantonese colony. They are in Miami. When you see a "Cantonese" restaurant in Dade, they are the owners. Thay also have flower shops, etc.

As to Haitians, when they started to arrive in Miami they weren't considered criminal elements, I remember they had many shops in the Dowtown area.

[Wild Style]

Originally Posted by Leovigildo

Wild Style

I read Malcolm X's autobiography that later became a soupy biopic. He wrote that his mother were from West Indies and that she was raped by a Scot, he call him "red raping devil". Malcom was also called Red Malcom.

I believe that the main problem of AA is that the Federal Government decided to consider them "victims" and "disadvantadged minorities", and then went on to explain their reason why they are a failed society and people. Before, blacks were poor Americans fighting against opressive laws, not "perpetual victims". They had their own economies, just like other pockets of minorities. All the black economy went bust when blacks were allowed to shop anywhere.

A similar thing happened in Miami with the appearance of large franchises and malls during the 80's, many Cuban Mom and Pop shops in the SW went bust.

Yes, Cuba had a large Cantonese colony. They are in Miami. When you see a "Cantonese" restaurant in Dade, they are the owners. Thay also have flower shops, etc.

As to Haitians, when they started to arrive in Miami they weren't considered criminal elements, I remember they had many shops in the Dowtown area.

I am not sure what you read about malcom x but this is from his official website. It is run by his family

Malcolm X was born Malcolm Little on May 19, 1925 in Omaha, Nebraska. His mother, Louise Norton Little, was a homemaker occupied with the family's eight children. His father, Earl Little, was an outspoken Baptist minister and avid supporter of Black Nationalist leader Marcus Garvey. Earl's civil rights activism prompted death threats from the white supremacist organization Black Legion, forcing the family to relocate twice before Malcolm's fourth birthday.

link

As for African American's as I said before there are many thriving african american communities many of which are middle class and some even affluent. You can see this in Chicago, parts of NYC, Atlanta, some of the coastal sea islands off the coast of georgia and south carolina. I think people, out of lack of knowledge try to paint african americans with the same broad brush and that is folly. I can take you to parts of bedstuy where they have half a million dollar to a million dollar brownstones where you will find mostly affluent african americans. One area in particular they all stuyversant heights or something like that. My cousin owns a brownstone in this area, very beautiful. But with travel and knowledge people will begin to understand what I am saying.

[Leovigildo]

Wild

The mother was born in Grenada.
Of course, I believe you.
I read the book about the Red Tail Squadron during WWII.
Quite interesting, they were all black professionals.

[Wild Style]

Originally Posted by Leovigildo

Wild

The mother was born in Grenada.
Of course, I believe you.
I read the book about the Red Tail Squadron during WWII.
Quite interesting, they were all black professionals.

didn't know that! Just looked it up, seem the mother was from Grenada and the father was American (black) You should also read about the buffalo soldiers unit who fought in world war II

They also have a movie out loosely based on them, they fought in Italy during WWII

[MisterNY]

yep and the same is true of African American's who are doign the same sorts of stuff the less affluent Caribbean people are doing. to deny that is to deny reality.

Clear on that one. But you seemingly always fail to read that I specify South Florida in just about any topic relating to AAs down here. You seem to jump at any criticism from me. (And, I'm the one with hang ups? )

The average black in Miami who you are referring to as "African Americans" are the descendants of Caribbeans, that's a historical fact. You can accept reality or not, that's your choice but the facts are there. As I said go to that museum, it will shed some light on that. Also using first names to justify a belief wont cut it. You have Latinos with names like Omar and Ivan, does that mean they are really Arabs and Russians? I don't think so.

I hope you and many others do. Might help to clear up a ton of misinformation/misconceptions I see floating around these forums. First step is education. I think that's a lot of the problem in South Florida (which would probably explain the problem in w. miramar". People are ignorant as sin about history and culture in South Florida.

You get no argument from me here. Wild, let's be real, where are the positive AA models down here to refute what other groups have in mind of blacks down here? You really don't see great progress down here. I am in Atlanta right now, and let me tell you, this is not South Florida. So please read my posts carefully, as I specifically say S. Fla. I am very well aware of African Americans thriving in NY/Chicago/NC/TX/Atlanta. Again, don't try to look for any hang ups in me, but look at the facts, and call a spade a spade, when need be.

Oh and as to who is going to school etc. I work in the higher education field. Americans as a whole are not going to school as much. Heck in engineering, medical and computer sciences departments here you are more likely to seen names like Ahmed, yang, and ghulshayr than you are to see any American name be that white, black or anything else. NPR did a great piece on the American issue and higher education and interviewed Bill Gates.

Educating ourselves on the facts makes the difference between a society of people who live among each other in harmony as opposed to a society who lives together yet hate each other.

You get no argument there.

[Wild Style]

Clear on that one. But you seemingly always fail to read that I specify South Florida in just about any topic relating to AAs down here. You seem to jump at any criticism from me. (And, I'm the one with hang ups? )

Now initially you do speak about African Americans in South Florida but then you state:

First the white man, then Latinos, now the Island Blacks and Africans . I just don't get it. Come to think of it, AAs don't seem to like anyone (blame game). Sad, very sad. Where is the love, and where does it end?

link which is when you seem to stop speaking solely about the AA of South Florida and start painting with a very broad brush which is a dangerous thing. One which you now seem to back track from or should I say you clarify your position.

As for me having hang ups I would have to have expressed some dislike for the AAs down here or be one and have a hang up about people speaking bad about them. I have not done any of the above and I am not from here so no hang ups. As for my "jumping" on your post as you see it. I don't dislike you at all, I just like to present facts as I know them to be. Friend or foe I am like that on the net and in real life. My friends know if they say something I know to be untrue or out of line I call them on that. It isn't meant as any disrespect or act of agression so please don't take it as such.

You get no argument from me here. Wild, let's be real, where are the positive AA models down here to refute what other groups have in mind of blacks down here? You really don't see great progress down here. I am in Atlanta right now, and let me tell you, this is not South Florida. So please read my posts carefully, as I specifically say S. Fla. I am very well aware of African Americans thriving in NY/Chicago/NC/TX/Atlanta. Again, don't try to look for any hang ups in me, but look at the facts, and call a spade a spade, when need be.

You seem to have clarified your statement with this post, before this post it wasn't so clear. As for role models in South Florida. Have you ever been to a junior achievement meeting down here? How much time have you actually spent in Carol City, Liberty City, Franklin Park, or any of these other areas? I am not just talking about being a teacher (which I was for awhile) and going to work and seeing what you see there. But have you actually broke bread with the people here and seen how they live and what they are doing? I can honestly say I have for awhile. There was a group of guys from here in Fort Lauderdale I befriended and got to know them and those areas very well. Even spent a lot of time in St. George park. Got to see what the shriners and free masons (all AA Floridians) where doing down here, what they do to give back to their community. Is it on the level of NYC or Chicago? Not even close but people really need to get out of their bubbles here in S. Florida and get to know these people before they start casting stones.

Again, you mention up North. Same here. You're talking to a man who is multicultural and racial (Father Mixed/mulatto Caribbean, Mother white South African/Belgian ), who was born and raised in NYC. I went to Molloy H.S in Queens where my friends were from all backgrounds, (from the Caribbean, Africa, African American, and White). What you mention above is no surprise to me. This is no Kumbaya talk, but diversity is what I am a product of, and my kids more so (my wife is black Caribbean). My closest friends are AA and Caribbean (NY raised). The whole African American not liking other blacks was something new to me when I moved down here. My wife filled me in on that BS too. To say it doesn't exist is bull. You know it, and I know it. Some of your posts, you will go out of your way to point your finger on the Caribbeans. Who seems to have hang ups here?

I have nothing against west indians. One of my closest friends in the entire world is from Port-au-Prince, haiti. Another very close friend is from St. Catherines Parish in Jamaica. With that said the same way AAs are said to dislike West Indians I have seen them (west indians) act very arrogantly toward African Amercians. Two way street on that front. Also you say you have seen African Americans act poorly against West Indians and latinos as a teacher, as I told you, I too was a teacher and I saw different. I won't say your experience isn't valid or untrue. I am saying lets not paint with a broad brush.

Again, read above. This is mainly South Florida specific. Were you with me when I had to deal with African American students poking fun at the Caribbean students? Where you there, when I asked students to group up for assignments and some AAs absolutely refused to group up with the Haitian or Latin students? I don't think so...Do a little street research. Go around, and ask. There are no hang ups on this end, just observations. Let's play fair. I'm neither African American, nor Haitian or Jamaican. I call it the way I see it. You would be lying to yourself if you believe there is great progress with blacks, even among blacks from different backgrounds down here. Show me 1 area in South Florida, that resemble Cascade Heights or SW Fulton Atlanta. Let's be real, we both know you can't. Show me 100 thriving middle size AA businesses down here on par with what you find in NYC/Chicago/Atlanta. My observations on the South Florida forums are south Florida specific. You seem to jump on me, at the fact that I state that there is no progress with AAs down here. You feel I have some disdain for them, when I don't. But please show me the progress, show me the accomplishments that you see in other cities. I think for one black group to hate against another black group is crab in the barrell mentality at its worse.

I never said you have neighborhoods like the ones up north down here. I think that is apples and oranges. I don't think ANY of the neighborhoods regardless of ethnicity down here are as dynamic as the ones up north. As for 100 thriving business down here. I am sure they exist, but the number of which I can not speculate on.

You are not 100% correct about the majority of AAs being descendants of Caribbeans. I'm not sure where you got the 80% figure from, but from my readings, it's way less than that. I will post or send you the link when I can. Plus if you want to use the fact that people (Caribbeans) who came here in the 1930s and want to talk about their ancestors keeping their Caribbean traditions/roots, you have a tough battle ahead of you. After 2 generations, customs and beliefs change. We all know that. Don't expect most nationalities to retain their language and cultures entirely after 2 generations in a country different from their own. Do you speak your parents' native language? What do your kids know about your parents' land? Do they speak your parents' native language? Your kids will identify themselves as African Americans before they can say they are West African. We're clear on that one. As much as you want to educate them about their ancestry, that's not what they will pick up. You know that.

Again this is where research, reading and travel comes in. Go to the islands off the coast of South Carolina and Georgia and you will find African American's speaking the same language of their fathers who came to America from Africa. Eating the same foods and same family structure. They are called Gullah and have been here for many many generations so thats point one. Point two look at all the Puerto Rican's in NYC some have been there for three and four generations, still speaking spanish and still retaining a unique identity. There is a old Arab community in Ohio that has been there since the 1800s, believe they are Syrian, again speaking arabic, still Muslim still retaining unique identities. I can go on and on, on that front so what we see in the real world doesn't agree with you on this. As for me, I speak three languages one of which is my family's tongue. Does my son know his family history, who he is and such? You bet your butt he does. Narrow your brush a bit, generalizations don't always work. Now am I saying these people are the same 100% as their forefathers? Well of course they arent. They have not had the same social/economic and environmental conditions that their fore fathers were in which made them who and what they were. However to deny that large groups can maintain parts of their cultural identiy over generations is to deny all the fact that many groups in America have done so for some time now.

So to clarify, are the African Americans down here as progressive as the ones up north? No, but then again neither are ANY of the ethnic groups down here. You can see that in how poorly Broward and Dade are run. In many ways S. Florida is bizarro world, it is what it is. But painting with broad brushes wont help either. This place and its people (specifically in Miami) have a LOT of unrealized potential. I think it will take some time (a lot of time) before its fully realized but I think they will eventually get there.

Lastly, I find it wild that the OP came and complained about the mistreatment she/he sees in their area and off the mark people jumped on the blame the AAs bandwagon. All boils down to lack of knowledge at the end of the day.