Is White Flight Right? (Detroit, Livonia: homes, rent, job)

[pirate_lafitte]

Originally Posted by One Thousand

The more I experience, the more I suspect that the reality is that most people who use the race card are just using it to justify their personal failures or a tool to preserve their egos from the reality that others dislike them on account of who they are rather than what color they are. It's easy to cry racism.

I suspect the racists-- those who associate behaviors with race or expect certain behaviors or beliefs to accompany race-- are the ones who use the race card. I'm coming to believe this because, as far as I can tell, as blacks rise through the ranks of respectable American society (the Powels, Rices and Thomas's), they're the "Uncle Toms," whereas, the ones who just gain notoriety for being human filth (rappers) who either encourage self-destructive behavior or encourage a sense of helplessness, are celebrated as successful blacks.

That the "Black State of the Union" conference laid bare "race comes before principle," makes it pretty clear that "white flight" is understandable... and includes respectable black as part of the movement... Atleast that's what I think I see.

I respect Colin Powell. I'm not so sure about Clarence Thomas or Condoleeza Rice.

[One Thousand]

Originally Posted by pirate_lafitte

I respect Colin Powell. I'm not so sure about Clarence Thomas or Condoleeza Rice.

Why not those two?

[pirate_lafitte]

Originally Posted by One Thousand

Why not those two?

I have grievances with them. At least Colin Powell can call a spade a spade and call people out when needed.

[One Thousand]

Originally Posted by pirate_lafitte

I have grievances with them. At least Colin Powell can call a spade a spade and call people out when needed.

What spade did they fail to call that you take issue with?

[Huntsville_secede]

Originally Posted by One Thousand

Would it be accurate, then, to say "You believe that the question of whether or not there is a moral violation in the trend we call 'white flight' is invalid?" because no one can understand the perspective of anyone else and, therefore, cannot form opinions based on their related life experience?



Would you please define racist?

Go back and read some of the blatant hatred in these posts and if you can't understand why it would be viewed as racism please check yourself into a mental institution. I'm not about to waste too much of my precious time trying to explain to you obvious things that anyone with half of a brain could see. You really must think black people are stupid enough that we are going to sit here and believe people who say stuff like below aren't filled with hate and racism towards blacks.

"multi-culturalism isnt fair for anyone, especially white ppl who are supposed to tolerate so many losers ruining all of our cities and raising our taxes so we have less money to spend at home on our families. also because our cities are ruined we have to live in suburbs which equals increased commute time to work everyday and increased gas costs. its been proven that the average white worker will lose a week of his life working for a year due to traffic because they cannot live closer in the urban" "there a good apples (blacks) but even a broken clock is right twice a day" --Racist poster

I didn't say all of the posts on here were blatant racism a lot of whites make valid points but some of them are. A lot of white people on here just want to blame all of the worlds problems on black people and fail to realize a part they may have played in anything thats negative. You would think black people created crime, drugs, theft, war, and every other bad thing of humans from reading some of these posts. Its kinda pointless to even discuss stuff with people like you, we understand there are problems in the black community but all you do is bash people behind your pathetic screen all day. You fail to understand cause and effect and realize the conditions these people come from, improvement is needed but its not going to happen overnight. You are what I call an "internet gangster". Somebody who talks tough behind a screen but wouldn't dare say any of this to a black person in person.

The main reason for Michigan's decline is the loss of hundreds of thousands of manufacturing jobs, you can't blame this entirely on black people. A lot of people would rather live in other places because of the cold too, I don't think black people put Michigan in a cold climate. And all new things come to a end things change, newer cities become more attractive and some of you people get on here and try to point out your statistics and numbers but you fail to tell the whole story behind everything. Manipulating numbers to make your point doesn't give an in depth picture of why things are how they really are.

[One Thousand]

Originally Posted by Huntsville_secede

Go back and read some of the blatant hatred in these posts and if you can't understand why it would be viewed as racism please check yourself into a mental institution. I'm not about to waste too much of my precious time trying to explain to you obvious things that anyone with half of a brain could see. You really must think black people are stupid enough that we are going to sit here and believe people who say stuff like below aren't filled with hate and racism towards blacks.

I agree with what you say in regard to the quote. However, who's wrong here? Me for not being aware of which of the numberous definitions of racims you're using and asking for clarity or for you to assume everyone knows how you define it?

Check wikipedia for the definition of "racism" and see if you can begin to fathom why an open-minded person would find your remarks ambiguous.

Originally Posted by Hunts

You fail to understand cause and effect and realize the conditions these people come from...

Actually, I do. I grew up fatherless and poor in an environment that sought to victimize people rather than help and whose culture can only be described as self-defeating. Race doesn't insulate from a crooked culture. It took me years to recognize that I was my own worst enemy and the reason for that was the people I listened to as a boy.

This is why I say "white" flight and what's frequently referred to as racism has nothing to do with race. It is cultural. I grew up, made a lot of mistakes, paid (and am paying) a toll for it and, as a result, I've abandoned my roots because I recognize they're rotten. However, it seems that in the ghetto mentality of Detroit, there's a tendency to preserve rotten roots as if there's some sort of pride in being born, as was I, scum.

I haven't spent my entire adult life crying about where I came from and making excuses for what I was. One day, I said "This isn't right" and I began changing it. I never called my family and friends and said "You need to change." If they want to know why or how I'm doing what I'm doing, I'll do what I can... but I'm not about to make excuses for them continuing to wallow in their failings.

That's why people ran from Detroit. The dominant culture celebrates self-destruction and entitlement. People who have self-respect or don't feel obligated to help those who refuse to change or refuse to help themselves, run... rightfully so.

Originally Posted by Hunts

Manipulating numbers to make your point doesn't give an in depth picture of why things are how they really are.

Making accusations without grounds isn't evidence to disprove the so-called "manipulated" numbers.

[trudawg]

Originally Posted by One Thousand

Would it be accurate, then, to say "You believe that the question of whether or not there is a moral violation in the trend we call 'white flight' is invalid?" because no one can understand the perspective of anyone else and, therefore, cannot form opinions based on their related life experience?

I'm I'm saying that neither side fully understands the reasonings behind how opinions and thoughts are formed Ie. the casue for white flite, or the cause for playing the "race card"
Let's agree to disagree and MTF on

[Indentured Servant]

I would like for someone to explain to me the point of demarcation in which racism ceased to be a valid impediment upon the lives of African Americans. Granted, I am aware of the landmark passage of laws granting freedom and rights and making discrimination illegal. However, changing laws does not change hearts and minds nor does it eliminate acts. Is there anyone who believes that crime has been eradicated because it’s illegal? Just because laws were passed does not mean that the problem has been solved.

If one does not live in a country as a descendant of a group enslaved in that country based upon their appearance and whose history as group in that nation has been spent nearly 90% in a form of legalized oppression….can you empathize? Blacks were enslaved from 1609 to 1863. That’s 254 years of racial slavery. From 1863 to 1964 blacks lived under racial apartheid laws known as Jim Crow. That’s 100 years of racial apartheid. From 1964 until today, 44 years, blacks have finally been able to breathe a little without legal forms of discrimination against them. So in summation, blacks have spent 354 years in these lands under a form of legal oppression and 44 years in the absence of legal oppression.

One has to be fair here. Is it fair to assume that after all those centuries of being mistreated based upon race that when something negatively impacts blacks, from the hands of whites, that blacks will interpret as a continuation of that pattern? How long does it take for a person with a reputation as a thief to not be a suspect when something comes up missing when they come around? Whites have a long history in this nation of being racist and blacks have been conditioned by that history to see whites as suspect when the behavior of whites negatively impacts upon them. Actions produce reactions and no one is willing to address the reactions, economically, psychologically and culturally, upon black people as a result of history. The present is a creation of the past.

People are programmed by their culture. Cultures are continuums that impact and transcend generations. The only “black” culture is African culture. The culture of black people in America is not black culture; rather, it’s the culture of America’s racial oppression. If you go to Africa, Africans do not manifest this culture. That culture was birthed and evolved here in America as the unwanted derivative of centuries of racial oppression. It mutates and changes as it interacts with the changes in the larger culture and society of America.

[One Thousand]

Originally Posted by trudawg

I'm I'm saying that neither side fully understands the reasonings behind how opinions and thoughts are formed Ie. the casue for white flite, or the cause for playing the "race card"
Let's agree to disagree and MTF on

There's no disagreement. Only a request for you to clarify the position you asserted. My question asks you how far can your perspective be taken. Are you saying that you should not make conclusions about others based on your experiences and goals in regard to the world around you because you're unable to fully understand the experiences of another?

Originally Posted by Indentured Servant

Is it fair to assume that after all those centuries of being mistreated based upon race that when something negatively impacts blacks, from the hands of whites, that blacks will interpret as a continuation of that pattern?

I don't believe it matters if it's fair or not. What matters to me is if it's accurate. If a person claims racism, do they have an obligation to justify that accusation? I say yes. They have an obligation. To do anything else allows irrational, paranoid conclusions to spread under the protection of ignorance.

Let me ask you this, is it fair to not confront irrational, unfounded accusations of racism which cause continued suffering needlessly that is present only because of misperceptions?

[Indentured Servant]

Originally Posted by One Thousand

There's no disagreement. Only a request for you to clarify the position you asserted. My question asks you how far can your perspective be taken. Are you saying that you should not make conclusions about others based on your experiences and goals in regard to the world around you because you're unable to fully understand the experiences of another?




I don't believe it matters if it's fair or not. What matters to me is if it's accurate. If a person claims racism, do they have an obligation to justify that accusation? I say yes. They have an obligation. To do anything else allows irrational, paranoid conclusions to spread under the protection of ignorance.

Let me ask you this, is it fair to not confront irrational, unfounded accusations of racism which cause continued suffering needlessly that is present only because of misperceptions?

What is a valid justification in your mind, intent and or effect? In court one needs to prove intent and intent manifest in minds and minds and conscious and subconscious thoughts do not leave paper trails that make it easy to prove intent. So just how would you have people prove that the intent of another was or was not racist?

I think that it is totally fair for a person accused of being a racist to defend him or her self from the charge, if it is not accurate. However, the charge will be defended against even if it is accurate because no one wants to be seen as a racist today. There are several problems. One is that no one reads minds. Second, not all people are willing to see themselves for what they are. There are people who suffer from anorexia and who see themselves as fat when they are nothing but skin and bones. There are alcoholics who cannot stop drinking but who will swear that they are not an alcoholic because they can stop anytime. So a person who cannot look at themselves honestly, in regards to race, my think the claims of others are off base and irrational when the really are not. Third, people are working from a different working definition of racism. Certainly if one has their own definition of racism that is different from the definition of someone who claims to be a victim of racism, then obviously different working definition will lead people to see and conclude differently…..or irrationality as you put it.