[whitechocolate86]

Originally Posted by westindian

I am glad to hear this. The only way we are ever going to conquer any racial related issues is when all sides are able to state what they feel without being labeled a racist or a bigot . Black people are the ones that need to wake up the most. Fortunately, I am running into other blacks who feel the same way I do on these issues. Maybe the race will improve and join the rest of the USA and become the productive citizens I know we can be.

Well, back to the Phoenix forum I go. I wish you all the best.

If I go to Detroit...am I gonna be chastised as a honky from Texas? Just curious...I heard about some water recreation activity on the detroit riverfront advertised on fsn and espn...surely that means Detroit has something going for it...

[One Thousand]

Originally Posted by Indentured Servant

What is a valid justification... how would you have people prove that the intent of another was or was not racist?

Document the actions of the individual under suspicion. Over time, a trend will emerge. If the person in question is too unimportant to invest the work, then whether or not they carry out a racist agenda doesn't matter.

If an individual feels the need to preoccupy themselves with the beliefs of people who are relatively insignificant-- and free to have their opinions-- then I would say that person needs to spend more time focusing on themselves and how they can make their lives better without whites (if they're that paranoid).

Another option, which is very practical, is to, rather than accuse racism, to question racism. If someone's giving a hard time and the recipient of that hard time feels it's racism. Ask. "Excuse me, I don't think you're treating me fairly. Is it because I'm Y?" (Y being anything.)

You might be surprised at what you find. "No, I'm irritated becasue I didn't get enough sleep." "No, not cause you're black. Because you've been loud since you walked in." "No, not because you're white. Because you're flipping your hair around and I think that's dirty."

You see what I'm saying? Especially, around Detroit. Average Detroiters, white or black in my experience, don't avoid conflict... we almost thrive on it...

Originally Posted by IS

Second, not all people are willing to see themselves for what they are. There are people who suffer from anorexia and who see themselves as fat...

That's a two way street. A person who attributes problems of their lives to racism isn't necessarily going to be aware that they're miscategorizing the behavior to their own detriment.

A person with an insignificant role who carries a dull sense of racism just doesn't matter. The waitress was bad? Go to the next place next time. It's that simple.

Really, even if there was the level of racism that some people claim, so what? Instead of crying about it, live your life right and find success. In the meantime, treat people decent and demonstrate your good values. Before you know it, you'll have eliminated racism in the minds of everyone you encounter... Because racism-- in it's orthodox definition-- is borne of ignorance.

All the crying in the world isn't going to change what the world see on TV about blacks. However, personal relationships will.

[Indentured Servant]

Originally Posted by One Thousand

[/font]

Document the actions of the individual under suspicion. Over time, a trend will emerge. If the person in question is too unimportant to invest the work, then whether or not they carry out a racist agenda doesn't matter.

If an individual feels the need to preoccupy themselves with the beliefs of people who are relatively insignificant-- and free to have their opinions-- then I would say that person needs to spend more time focusing on themselves and how they can make their lives better without whites (if they're that paranoid).

Another option, which is very practical, is to, rather than accuse racism, to question racism. If someone's giving a hard time and the recipient of that hard time feels it's racism. Ask. "Excuse me, I don't think you're treating me fairly. Is it because I'm Y?" (Y being anything.)

You might be surprised at what you find. "No, I'm irritated becasue I didn't get enough sleep." "No, not cause you're black. Because you've been loud since you walked in." "No, not because you're white. Because you're flipping your hair around and I think that's dirty."

You see what I'm saying? Especially, around Detroit. Average Detroiters, white or black in my experience, don't avoid conflict... we almost thrive on it...


[font=Times New Roman]

That's a two way street. A person who attributes problems of their lives to racism isn't necessarily going to be aware that they're miscategorizing the behavior to their own detriment.

A person with an insignificant role who carries a dull sense of racism just doesn't matter. The waitress was bad? Go to the next place next time. It's that simple.

Really, even if there was the level of racism that some people claim, so what? Instead of crying about it, live your life right and find success. In the meantime, treat people decent and demonstrate your good values. Before you know it, you'll have eliminated racism in the minds of everyone you encounter... Because racism-- in it's orthodox definition-- is borne of ignorance.

All the crying in the world isn't going to change what the world see on TV about blacks. However, personal relationships will.

How are you going to document the actions of an individual…..in black vs. white? Unless a person knows how a white person is being treated under the same circumstance (and is it the same circumstance) they cannot demonstrate a pattern of racism. They can only demonstrate a pattern of them being treated poorly. For example, there was a study done by the University of Chicago that showed that resumes with black sounding names were rejected at twice the rate of resumes with white sounding names, all other qualifications being equal. How did they know…..they sent out the resumes and monitored the call back. How would an individual not part of such a study who sent in their resume and was not called back track the pattern? Racism now is mostly uncovered in “Stings” of this nature as people are not overt as in the past. So its quite a burden and task to prove intent of racism.

Another point I want to mention is most acts of discrimination likely go undetected and do not therefore lead to claims of discrimination from blacks. Like in the University of Chicago study. A person sending in a resume has no way of knowing that they have been discriminated against, by assumptions made of names, addresses, school attended or what not, which may strongly hint at a persons race. All they know is that they did not get a call or interview. Black people know that racism exist out in the system and serves as an impediment to black aspirations….they just can’t prove it. So blacks will generally accuse racism as a reason that we are still struggling to reach parity.

Black people are exposed to negative treatment that is not related to race as much as any other group. I think it safe to say that black people can usually discern if they are simply an unlikable person in general or whether someone does not like them because of their race. Hell….after 400 years of racism…..black folks should be given just a little credit on their ability to identify it…lol. It’s like the ability to be a tracker in the bush chasing wild game to kill and eat. If you have been exposed to it for generations….you knows the signs. That said, there are black people who try to exploit the reality for personal gain. Recently there was a story of a black guy who lived way out in the burbs who said some burned a cross in his lawn. It turns out that he did it for some personal ulterior motive.

You are right in that not all people are willing to see their complicity in their own negative situation. However, what make the situation different is history and the patterns of history. If there was not such a strong history to back up black claims, I would echo your sentiment.

[One Thousand]

Originally Posted by Indentured Servant

How are you going to document the actions of an individual…. How would an individual not part of such a study who sent in their resume and was not called back track the pattern?

First question: You wouldn't unless the person was important. (Judge, police, etc. Government employees.) Private citizens? They're free to be racist. There's no reason to worry about it.

Question two: They wouldn't. That's life. Either a person can cry over spilled milk or they can get on with it.

Originally Posted by IS

Another point I want to mention is most acts of discrimination likely go undetected and do not therefore lead to claims of discrimination from blacks... Black people know that racism exist out in the system and serves as an impediment to black aspirations….they just can’t prove it. So blacks will generally accuse racism as a reason that we are still struggling to reach parity.

I suggest black people grow up then. Can't get the job you want? Start a business. Can't get into the school you want? Go to a different one.

People get mistreated for all sorts of reasons. I have to intentionally dress poorly and speak less articulately for interviews because I intimidate the interviewer otherwise. What am I going to do? Cry because overweight women and short men are intimidated? Start a group so that me and all the other people similarly discriminated against can prove that most overweight women are intimidated by us?

No. You ignore it and move on... Then when the opportunity presents itself, you give a call and let them know that you just took a big account from them. Then you're even.

Have you read Thomas' book? "My Grandfathers Son?"

Originally Posted by IS

I think it safe to say that black people can usually discern if they are simply an unlikable person in general or whether someone does not like them because of their race.

Last post, you said racists can't see their racism and agreed blacks might label non-racist behavior as racist. Now it's unquestionable that blacks can tell?

Actually, my fiance came home near daily from work for over a year claiming she was being mistreated due to race. She'd expain the behavior, and 90% of the time my response was "that's how white people are." This is after she'd been working around whites for years.

The other ten percent was generally related to someone being angry over performance. (Showing them up or making a mistake.) My advice to her, which resolved any questionable situations was the same I mentioned: Ask.

If you don't feel comfortable saying "because I'm black," then just ask "is there a reason that you're not treating me nicely?"


I've been around and witnessed too many successful blacks to believe in racism holding people back in any significant measure. The one thing I've heard in those generous enough to speak openly is "You just can't pay attention to that stuff."

Talk to some successful black folks. (Who didn't find success race-baiting or engagine in destructive behavior.)

[Indentured Servant]

Originally Posted by One Thousand

First question: You wouldn't unless the person was important. (Judge, police, etc. Government employees.) Private citizens? They're free to be racist. There's no reason to worry about it.

Question two: They wouldn't. That's life. Either a person can cry over spilled milk or they can get on with it.




I suggest black people grow up then. Can't get the job you want? Start a business. Can't get into the school you want? Go to a different one.

People get mistreated for all sorts of reasons. I have to intentionally dress poorly and speak less articulately for interviews because I intimidate the interviewer otherwise. What am I going to do? Cry because overweight women and short men are intimidated? Start a group so that me and all the other people similarly discriminated against can prove that most overweight women are intimidated by us?

No. You ignore it and move on... Then when the opportunity presents itself, you give a call and let them know that you just took a big account from them. Then you're even.

Have you read Thomas' book? "My Grandfathers Son?"




Last post, you said racists can't see their racism and agreed blacks might label non-racist behavior as racist. Now it's unquestionable that blacks can tell?

Actually, my fiance came home near daily from work for over a year claiming she was being mistreated due to race. She'd expain the behavior, and 90% of the time my response was "that's how white people are." This is after she'd been working around whites for years.

The other ten percent was generally related to someone being angry over performance. (Showing them up or making a mistake.) My advice to her, which resolved any questionable situations was the same I mentioned: Ask.

If you don't feel comfortable saying "because I'm black," then just ask "is there a reason that you're not treating me nicely?"


I've been around and witnessed too many successful blacks to believe in racism holding people back in any significant measure. The one thing I've heard in those generous enough to speak openly is "You just can't pay attention to that stuff."

Talk to some successful black folks. (Who didn't find success race-baiting or engagine in destructive behavior.)

People can cry, whine, *****, complain; fight….all while getting on with their lives. It’s not as if blacks have not been attempting to get on with their lives just because of racism. Moreover, taking time out to document things as you suggest…..is not an example of getting on with your life.

My comment about black people and the history of racism is that it has been a phenomenon that black have dealt with for centuries. Black people know the patterns of racism. That is not to say that black people can read minds, but when certain behavior meets a 400 year pattern…..it raises the “R” flag.

Alternative Options are not a plentiful as you make them out to be.

[One Thousand]

Originally Posted by Indentured Servant

It’s not as if blacks have not been attempting to get on with their lives just because of racism. Moreover, taking time out to document things as you suggest…..is not an example of getting on with your life.

Being involved (whether starting or joining) citizen organizations that fight racism in the government isn't an option. It's an obligation that one should be committed to anyway. It's not an added burden... it's civil responsibility.

I donate to three causes... One is a Michigan organization dedicated to improving the lives of people, the NRA is close to my heart and St. Jude is always breaking my heart. Those are the causes I see as important. You should be involved with ones you see as important.

Blacks-- as a whole-- are neither moving on or getting bogged down. When you refer to blacks (or anyone else for that matter) as a monolith, you encourage racism. Plenty of blacks are moving on with their lives. Plenty of blacks aren't moving on with their lives. That's who we're talking about: The people who complain about racism in the actions of whites when they really have no reason to believe it... Like "white" flight being the result of seeing blacks come into the neighborhood rather than a dozen other reasons that are simply coinciding with the entry of blacks into a neighborhood.

Originally Posted by IS

My comment about black people and the history of racism is that it has been a phenomenon that black have dealt with for centuries. Black people know the patterns of racism.

Which black people? What? Just because you have a certain pigmentation guarantees you an instinctual awareness of intent?

Explain why my black woman misinterpreted racism until I explained the nuances of white culture? And, if it took her a year (or so) to understand white people, what makes you think blacks in general could understand when they don't have a tutor of sorts explaining the dimensions of successful white culture?

Originally Posted by IS

Alternative Options are not a plentiful as you make them out to be.

They're more plentiful. Believe me, if I were back in Detroit, I'd be in business yesterday. All you need is some gumption and the vision to recognize opportunity.

Go to the city-county building, get yourself what's called a "dBa" (doing Business as), head over to the bank, get yourself a bank account and you're in business. Call a couple insurance companies. If you're a one man outfit, get quotes on a million dollar liablility policy. Now you're golden.

Move in with your parents or reduce your expenses to next to nothing. And spend the next five years either getting work or doing work.

What more opportunity do you need than the opportunity to be your own man? The directions for every trade or manufacturing process is written down. All you need is a couple dollars (less than $100 to be in business) and a car and you're there.

[deslok]

WhiteChocolate, I sure hope you aren't called a ******. Man Detroit has problems allright, lol. People can't even enjoy the nice things it has due to all the hate. The only way to end it is to really end it, which is by everyone just saying what is past is past, present is present, let's move on and work together. This won't happen.
Black people need to quit worrying about racisim. They get it, so do white people, Chinease, everyone to some degree gets it from any other race that of which is not their own. 400 years of experience with racism...is that something to put on a resume?
Some black and white folks wish the slavery thing had not happened ever. It was bad, and brought us all together as it stands now. Obviously this cannot work.
The other people see things as they are, and judge people for who they are not what color of skin they have. Is white flight right? Yes, so is black flight or any sort of flight. Who am I to judge if it is right or wrong if someone moves because they don't feel comfortable.

[kcam213]

Originally Posted by whitechocolate86

If I go to Detroit...am I gonna be chastised as a honky from Texas? Just curious...I heard about some water recreation activity on the detroit riverfront advertised on fsn and espn...surely that means Detroit has something going for it...

No. My husband is white, and he had no problems whatsoever when we spent time on the riverfront in Detroit...

neither did the other white people there, walking, jogging, rollerblading and walking their dogs along the riverfront.

And neither did the foreign tourists walking along.

and neither did the downtown office workers having lunch on the benches along the riverfront.

Mind you it was day time, lots of security... police walking the beat, riding bikes etc.

I haven't been there at night... quite frankly not something that *I* a black woman would think was wise for me to do. I honestly am not sure how secure I would feel at night.... crime tends to increase at night.

For that matter, I don't think I would be hanging out at a park at night in Livonia, or Bloomfield Hills. Unless of course it was the fireworks etc.

YMMV.

[hairmetal4ever]

Originally Posted by trudawg

You can debate about this back and forth all you want. The point is Sububanites NEED to feel that inner-city's are crime-ridden and horrible to justify within themselves the reason they pay 5 times as much for a home, and commute 2-3 hours each day.
Trying to explain what it is to be a minority to a NON-minority is like a women trying to explain to a man what it feels like to have a baby, or a period. They just don't get it, and never will! ..........and vice versus!
-I've been on internet forums for years, and believe it isn't just THIS forum it's everywhere. The anonymity of the internet gives people an ungodly amount of courage to speak their mind. Only thing it does for me is lets me know how people really feel, and I keep my guard up at all times.

Actually, some inner city areas are crime ridden. Others are not.

The reasons I prefer exurban living are much different. First, I like single family homes on larger lots - I enjoy having a garden of my own. I like looking out and seeing just other homes and trees, not a bunch of steel and dirt. It's my choice and it's not rooted in racism, xenophobism, or anything else.

[detshen]

Originally Posted by kcam213

No. My husband is white, and he had no problems whatsoever when we spent time on the riverfront in Detroit...

neither did the other white people there, walking, jogging, rollerblading and walking their dogs along the riverfront.

And neither did the foreign tourists walking along.

and neither did the downtown office workers having lunch on the benches along the riverfront.

Mind you it was day time, lots of security... police walking the beat, riding bikes etc.

I haven't been there at night... quite frankly not something that *I* a black woman would think was wise for me to do. I honestly am not sure how secure I would feel at night.... crime tends to increase at night.

For that matter, I don't think I would be hanging out at a park at night in Livonia, or Bloomfield Hills. Unless of course it was the fireworks etc.

YMMV.

I'm white and I used to live in the Rivertown area just east of the RenCen, I always walked around down there and felt comfortable. There is a mix of races that live in apartments in the area.