Is White Flight Right? (Detroit, Kalamazoo: apartment, income, rental)

[Existtoexit]

Just take a look at the pictures in city data! That alone is enough too see the hype is very well true! Than look at the median house hold income . Than look at the crime rate .

Now compare the city data photos , median house hold incomes and crime rates of other large cities in america and you will see the hype is true!


Even if you compare detroit too other horrible cities like camden and east saint louis or any city in america with similar statistics as detroit! You will start too realise that these cities have less than 1/5 th the population of detroit! Camden has 70ish thousand and detroit has 900 ish thousand . Statistic wise they will be neck and neck!
But when you see how much larger detroit is! It is a given that detroit must have neighborhoods far worse than the average! Out of the 900 thousand residents . Those statistics are the average of detroit! Obviously there are many areas that are well below the average stats of detroit .

IT is beyond obvious that detroit has some of the top 5 worst neighborhoods in america if not the worst!

Detroit , Saint louis and New Orleans are all neck and neck for the worst large cities in america! Sadly it seems detroit maybe number 1 ! Sadly even with the new orleans disaster detroit is probably an even bigger disaster! I vote detroit as the worst city in america!

Does any one else back my vote for the nominee of detroit as the worst city in america?

[ckhthankgod]

Originally Posted by Existtoexit

Immigrants from africa have the highest amount of college education . This is immigrants who recently moved from africa .The amount of africans from africa who have immigrated from africa too america is extremely small . The african immigration wave too america is drastically smaller than that of other groups such as asians , hispanics and eastern europeans . African americans that make up almost the whole american population have a low rate of college graduates .


the africans who come too america are the highest cream of the crop of africa . The wave of african immigrants too america is very small . Many of them come to america just for education .


-Although the African immigrant population actually has the highest educational attainment of any group in the United States, they represent a small group

The education of African Americans lags behind those of other U.S. ethnic groups, such as European Americans and Asian Americans, as reflected by test scores, grades, urban high school graduation rates, rates of disciplinary action, and rates of conferral of undergraduate degrees


Asian Americans, whose parents have the highest rate of education, attend college at the highest rates, while African Americans at about half the rate of whites, and Hispanics at just 11 percent. It has been noted that far more African American women attend and complete college than men, a trend that is now also true of the general population to a lesser extent.
Completed 4 years of college age 25-29 (1998) [3]
White Black Hispanic Asian
29% 14% 11% 50%


Iqs: In America
Whites (mean = 101.4, SD = 14.7) were higher than those for Blacks (mean = 86.9, SD = 13.0); distributions for Hispanics (mean = 91), East Asians (mean = 106), and Ashkenazi Jews (mean = 112-115)


The differences in these iq's are fact . But my question is what can we do about it? Is there anything we can do? It seems doubtiful .


the iq's in the countries in the world reflect the same iqs!

Can you not see the asian countries generally at the top of the list with the lowest on the list being african countries.


Rank Country IQ estimate Rank Country IQ estimate Rank Country IQ estimate
1 Hong Kong 107 28 Argentina 96 55 Fiji 84
2 South Korea 106 29 Slovakia 96 56 Iran 84
3 Japan 105 30 Uruguay 96 57 Marshall Islands 84
4 Taiwan 104 31 Portugal 95 58 Puerto Rico 84
5 Singapore 103 32 Slovenia 95 59 Egypt 83
6 Austria 102 33 Israel 95 60 India 82
7 Germany 102 34 Romania 95 61 Ecuador 80
8 Italy 102 35 Bulgaria 94 62 Guatemala 79
9 Netherlands 102 36 Ireland 94 63 Barbados 78
10 Sweden 101 37 Greece 94 64 Nepal 78
11 Switzerland 101 38 Malaysia 94 65 Qatar 78
12 Belgium 100 39 Thailand 93 66 Zambia 77
13 China (PRC) 100 40 Croatia 92 67 Republic of the Congo 73
14 New Zealand 100 41 Peru 91 68 Uganda 73
15 United Kingdom 100 42 Turkey 90 69 Jamaica 72
16 Hungary 99 43 Indonesia 90 70 Kenya 72
17 Poland 99 44 Mexico 89 71 South Africa 72
18 Spain 99 45 Suriname 89 72 Sudan 72
19 Australia 98 46 Brazil 87 73 Tanzania 72
20 Denmark 98 47 Iraq 87 74 Ghana 71
21 France 98 48 Colombia 87 75 Nigeria 69
22 Norway 98 49 Samoa 87 76 Guinea 69
23 Finland 98 50 Tonga 87 77 Zimbabwe 68
24 Canada 97 51 Lebanon 86 78 Democratic Republic of the Congo 67
25 Czech Republic 97 52 Philippines 86 79 Sierra Leone 67
26 United States 97 53 Cuba 85 80 Ethiopia 66
27 Russia 96 54 Morocco 85 81 Equatorial Guinea 6


What i notice about iq is . That in general you can see that countries near the poles have much higher iqs on average than countries closer too the equator . In my opinion in cold brutal climates where weather and climate change are the highest demands . high focus and low impulsivity is needed . In hot climates with a much higher amount of predators .High impulsivity is needed more . I believe that these are roots of natural selection . The other thing could be that climate its self changes iq . Hot Weather could make focus much weaker , Also making distractions higher .






-Middle easterners started the slave trade .The middle eastern arab slave trade did soo well , That europeans got ideas from it! Middle easterners conquered africans and brutally converted them too islam . Middle easterners still brutally enslave africans in sudan today ! Africans gave up their own families for slavery . Many african slaves were prisoners of war and africans traded their own people too white people for slavery .

My point is that it came from all different angles . All the groups had just as much too do with slavery as the others .

Slaves were common back then All countries had slaves in the past . Many european whites have been enslaved by other europeans at one time or another .
All over the world slaves were used many of them prisoners of war . Slavery is morally wrong almost everyone knows that . Back than slavery was ccepted as okay world wide . Till this day over 100 million people are enslaved .

Did you know the first slaves in america were the irish?
The irish did not fare well in the malaria infestion in the south and died out .
Than they tried native american slaves . The native american slaves would run off and hide in the mountains and plan ambushes against the slave masters .

The last result was the black slaves : who were able too survive the southern climates and did not run away .

Now slavery is relative . Look at in ireland where they had too work just as hard as the slaves in america. The potato famine came and england did nothing , The irish still attempted too work and many of them starved too death . The slaves at least got shelter and fed . Look at early industrial revolution england . You had kids who worked 18 hour days who got paid wages that could barely afford food or shelter . Many of them could not afford shelter or food , They were on their own they had too work like slaves then attempt too buy food that was barely enough too get by . and still had too work like slaves . At least a slave is usually giving shelter and fed . I think many homeless people today can have it worse than slaves at least slaves knew they would get food water and shelter .





- With rural areas dying economically And people flocking from their too big cities . - Now with the major gas crisis . It is cheaper too live in urban centers . Many people like the social connection in big cities . In the technology age where everyone feels more and more isolated cities are looking better and better too regain social connections .
In europe many of the big cities like paris have rich urban centers and the poor live in sprawling outskirts of the big cities .
It will take a long time for this too happen , But all over america their has been a recent flock too rebuild the down towns of cities all over america . Some cities will be quicker than others . The first most likely will be new york . You can already see in new york that the whole island of manhatten is becoming wealthier and wealthier . Now brooklyn and the bronx has many wealthy areas popping up . The ghettos in new york are slowly pushing further and further out , Pushing right out into the suburbs turning suburbs of the past into new slums . The problem is no matter where ghettos are whether it is a high rise tenements or trailor parks . They still seem too have similar problems .
Sadly i think detriot will be one of the last cities too have this happen too .

Existtoexit, what is interesting is how people seem to forget that the Asians that are here are also the cream of the crop ad are a relatively small group here as well. So, that can be said almost about any recent immigrant group. Also, many Asian groups, especially from Southeast Asia, also are dealing with many issues that plague inner cities across the country. So, it depends on the Asians one talks about. The, you have to consider that most of the Asians involved actually are people that come to get an education here in the states and then, stay here. So, a lot of times the Asians are ones that might decide to stay after getting an education, even if they initially weren't going to do so. You also have to think of the criteria of the IQ stats as to how many people did they involve, what determines such and so on. So, the "model minority thing" is a myth that Asians didn't make up, but Whites used to show Blacks that, "Hey, they are of color too. So, why can't you guys do it?" with out taking into account many complex factors.

Then, in terms of Africans, why is it that in other countries like England, that the African immigrants there are the most educated people overall, percentage wise? Then, in Canada, Blacks are more assimilated than any other visible minority group and most of the Blacks there come from the Caribbean. So, again, it depends on where you get your information from and the examples one uses.

As far as the Irish, while they were used before African slaves, they also were in conflict withe England for centuries. Hence the reason why many were used before Africans. Many Irish were used as indentured servants too, but still got their freedom and could assimilate into the larger society. Also, why would England get involved in the potato famine, when they had been enemies for such a long time? It's not like the countries are one and the same, anyway.

As far as slaves getting food and shelter, at least the people in industrial England had choices, unlike the slaves. Also, many slaves were treated poorly, had their culture/language/customs/names pretty taken from them unlike those of industrial England or the people in the Irish potato famine. I'm sure the slaves had long days too and they would get punished for trying to read and write, something we now take for granted. Also, Black slaves were in a sense strong physically and were more visible due to being more visible to the larger society.

Also, there is still slavery in the US and all over the world, but today it is in a different form. You can check this site out for an example:Free the Slaves - Interactive Map It's not just the things you see or hear about in places like Darfur, but occurs even in our own country.


As for the original topic, I think with gentrification taking place in many major cities, you could see the trend of flight reversing itself with the money coming back into the cities, but a lot of this depends on the vision by those that are making these changes to these urban neighborhoods. This is occurring in my city of Syracuse, NY with Syracuse University being involved in quite a few changes they are proposing. It will be interesting to see what the makeup of the people will be when things are all said and done. it might be true that Detroit might be a city that does this later down the line due to it's history in terms of relations with Blacks and Whites. That could all change though as the younger generations come up though.

[Existtoexit]

I agree with everything you have said! I defiantly agree that the asians in america are the cream of the crop . I also agree many of them come too the states just for education . I also agree that it is a small group in america.
The one thing though is that bottom level east asians from china often move too south east asian areas like the philippines , vietnam , indonesia ect . The chinese were minorities in south east asia tooT The thing is that the chinese set up china towns in many of these south east asian countries . The chinese huddled together in the china towns in south east asian and became extremely wealthy and rich with in south east asia . The chinese worked like jews , They kept close , They created their own stores , Grew larger wealth and than studied too gain jobs in south east asia such as doctors , bankers ect .

The chinese were soo klanish, They were soo wealthy and successful that there was extreme resentment in south east asia of the chinese . The chinese were actually murdered and butchered in many south east asian countries because of this .

The interesting part is that these chinese moving into south east asia were not the cream of the crop but rather peasants and average chinese citzens .
I find it interesting that china has a much higher iq with in china than south eastern asian countries . Soo i tend too see the higher iq of the chinese giving them this wealthy advantage as minorities in south east asia .

I think it is extremely difficult to compare the inner city problems in asia to america . The highest population densities in the world being in south east asia , With south east asia also having some of the highest amounts of poverty world wide . The high amounts of floods .The constant loss of land to floods and weather problems .The Lack of land needed to live , The lack of land to build on or to farm . The starvation , The famines . The opressive governments .

In situations of hunger and extreme over crowing and loss of crops and land to live .
These are the kinds of situations that cause wars , and major violence . Hunger and lack of room to live! Is a major crisis causing complete mayhem!

These are situations far different from the american sprawling urban situations .
In america even in the worst slums , kids have cell phones , kids have nice shoes . They have cars . They do not starve too death .

The high class of south east asia , Has seen more problems and have had much higher struggles than anyone in america ever has or ever will have .

What i do know is that in china town in new york you have mostly chinese merchants . But you also have a minority merchants of immigrants from west africa . I have never had any trouble with the chinese merchants in china town .
How ever! when i was 10 i was threatend by an african immigrant into buying a watch! Than he closed in on me trying to scare me into buying a watch . I was 10 , i am sorry but that is a very horrible thing to do! I have also had many african merchants heckel me , get in my face , Threaten me and try too scam me into free deals than telling me i have to pay a ridiculous amount . I had a group of 3 african merchants recently walking with their merchandise try to start a fight with me yelling at me and saying very horrible things getting in my face .
The fact is i have seen many more chinese merchants vs the african ones . I have never had any trouble with the chinese merchants . I have had a major long list of problems with the african merchants . Not only have i not been bothered by chinese merchants . I have never been bothered by a single asian in general .

If african immigrants from africa have these rude violent attitudes . Is it because of slavery? I don't see it .

I went to a college with an even amount of asian students too african immigrant students . I met a few asian girls ,who were very studious and did their work . They worked beyond hard and many of them got the best grades in the school! A few of the asians got perfect grades!
Now there were a few african immigrant girls i was exposed to . They did not try very hard . I caught this african girl cheating in class . She wanted me to do all of her homework . I did not do her homework soo she did not do it . She wanted me to get on her email for her , Because she could not get onto her email . She wanted me to print things and type things for her . With out me she did not do any of her work . At first i was friends with her for a bit . Eventually all she ever talked to me about was me doing her favors for her in school .


Although the asian difference in america can be justified as being due too them being the high end of asia .
You can not explain the jewish situation!

The jews are not only ethnic minorities but they are religious minorities!
The jews are a very small group! For such a small group they sure have had alot of very wealthy and successful people . Since the dawn of the jewish existance they have always known to be wealthy merchants , bankers , and doctors .
In every country in the world jews have been minorities , But yet are almost always very intelligent , wealthy and successful with in those countries .

I personally feel the 112 - 114 iq estimate of jews is a pretty accurate measurement!

Now you can also compare the gypsies too the jews! Both minorities in europe , Both foreign populations .


Why have the jews always been seen as successful and poweriful .
But the gypsies have always been seen as poor peasant savages?

Why are there soo many well known , famous , very intelligent , poweriful
influential jews .

But where are all of the famous very intelligent gypsies?


Now the african immigration from africa is even smaller than the asian population . The africans are even higher structurally cream of the crop than the asians . The africans are also come too america or europe fo college in even higher amounts than asians .

Barack obama's father actually was sponsered too come over from africa too learn studies in the states .

Another thing about the carribean is that . Jamaica has one of the highest murder rates in the world .
Now compare jamaica too cuba! Cuba is much poorer , Cuba has much more poverty!

But cuba has a crime rate that is rather low compared too jamaica , What factors can influence cuba too have a lower crime rate?

Not only does cuba have a fairly low crime rate compared too the amount of poverty . Cuba also has a birth rate lower than america? Why?
Not only does cuba have a lower birth rate than both jamaica and america . Cuba has one of the lowest birth rates in the world .


Cuba also has an iq that is much higher than jamaica . Cuba's iq points are nearly 20 points higher than jamaica .

The fact is that jamaica has a fairly low poverty rate compared too the rest of the carribean . Jamaicans are many times better off than cubans . Both government wise and poverty wise .

Having one of the highest murder rates in the world in jamaica does not even make sense on paper .

Than you can bring in haiti into the equation which is the worst in the western hemisphere .

I defiantly do agree that the iqs and any statistics can be biased . Any fact or anything we are taught can be biased or wrong .

Just look at the difference of history taught in texas vs neighboring towns in mexico .
The texans see the winning of the alamo against the mexicans as their biggest triumph!
The mexicans would tell stories of greedy texans savagely killing mexicans and taking their land .

Now i agree canada has a better situation for minorities . America is actually pretty high on the amount of time it takes for minorities too assimilate into the society .

In canada it is a fresh start , There are no preconcived ideas . There is no bad blood of neighborhoods or of different groups .

I also feel that their is a small amount of carribeans moving to canada . I also feel the most educated and intelligent carribeans are the ones who will move too canada vs florida or new york .

But i think sometimes black kids in america have a view of them selves being kept down more than the actual circumstances have kept them down .
There is no doubt about it there are reasons why blacks are poorer due too racism .
But i think sometimes ideas became exergerated with in youth blacks , I think sometimes they have a much higher idea of them selves being kept down by white people than is actually happening .

The problem is that these black kids keep the stero types alive . They keep the racism going . Because many of them keep attitudes and begin too keep the racism on them selves mainly due too anger , instead of actual racism against them selves causing them selves to fail in school .

Now with the education systems and affirmitive action and as well as government aid for colleges . Blacks have a very good chance too pull ahead . The problem is that it is still rather stagnent . There is a city near me that is 7 percent black and the college in that city is 30 percent black . The whole county that college is in is only 7 percent black as well . The neighboring counties have even less blacks around 2 percent . Soo if all of these blacks are getting these college advantages . Where is the major advantages blacks should be getting? I my self as well as almost everyone i know have seen a large majority of the blacks in colleges just goof off and mess around and not even focus on studying . Is this because of some evil white man! Of course not! If people are witnessing this!? Does it mean they are racist! I doubt it ! It means they are perceptive too a circumstance they are witnessing .

The thing is that black poverty is with in urban cities where there is an abundance of jobs . Black poverty are with in urban areas where racism is diminished . White poverty is based on rural status or mental illness or a town losing jobs for the most part .
I myself live in a strung out rural area! It took me over an hour to get too school! It takes me a 20 minute drive to get to a library . In urban centers kids are usually in walking distance too both schools and libraries . They have a major advantage to better them selves . Some kids take these advantages sure! But most don't!

Now even more strange is that , Rural midwestern states have the highest sat scores in the nation . Where education should not be as important as urban and surbuban states where business and education should be much bigger priorities vs agricultural cultures .
Why would north dakota and iowa have the highest sat scores , As well as the best schools in the nation? Shouldn't new york where most people depend on education have the highest sat scores in the nation? new york has the 2nd lowest sat scores in the country . New york is also filled with massive amounts of minorities .

The extremely high amount of whites of german and nordic decent and high sat scores in iowa can only be described by race . That is my opinion . Is it a coincidence that so many of the best scientists and mathematicians are of nordic or german decent? Or that soo many nobel peace prize winners were nordic or german? Is it shocking that north dakotas rural nordic- german populations also have the highest sat scores as well as the best schools in america? . It seems like a pattern? Or is it just me ?

Look at the recent iowa floods , There was no lootings , no crimes , No hostility .Where people actually worked together! Where as blacks in new orleans were not only looting but they were actually shooting at fema ! They were shooting at the people coming to save them!

It is not like iowa is a rich state . Iowa is a fairly poor state . Why should sat scores be the highest and violence be soo low in iowa . I am sorry but i see race as the only reasons why .

Now in all reality the irish had much worse circumstances vs the black slaves . The irish were starving to death . Famine is a much stronger struggle than the slaves usually faced . I understand that the english did not have too help . But england basically depended on ireland for farming and for many things . Ireland was a part of great britian . It is basically like saying we won't help people in west virginia because they are a different state .
Now the irish and the industrial revolution english had things often worse than the black slaves . But mentally maybe the slaves could feel worse .
But at least the slaves knew they would get fed . The irish and english factory workers did not . many of them did not get fed . In all seriousness i think this is a much worse situation . The slaves could also pretend they were working more than they were . Now yes the slaves got beat but so did the irish and english factory workers if they did not perform they would get beat or would lose a whole days pay . The irish were raped beaten and killed by the english . It is not like the irish were treated alright .

It is the idea of do wild horses have better lives or do the horses fenced up?
The irish and english workers were like wild animals left alone to do what they had to do , But they had too fend for more things . They had more things to worry about and had more outside enemies
The slaves were like live stock although they were confined too certain areas and were forced to do certain acts , they still were at least taken care of to a point .

Choices is only a mental thing . You have a choice too work a 18 hour work day . Or be homeless and starve too death . Is this not an indiscrete form of slavery ?

Now i defiantly agree that based on the skin color and similar features to the english . The irish did assimilate easier . None the less the irish are one of the richest white groups in america now .

I have read all about the slavery situations . There are carpenter slaves , Crop slaves , Industrial slaves ,Indentured servants ,Sex slaves There are prisoners of war as slaves which is the darfur situation .



Now about the subject .
I find that there is defiantly a major gentrification developing in this country . With the gas crisis now the process will gain further , due to short commutes and close lifestyles . But i think that gentrification needs a base to start . in syracuse it is the college .IT can be due to the high amount of jobs and business in the centrally located down towns . In some cities it can be a museum or a spectacular view or spectacular housing structures . It can be a cultural boom like soho . But i find that it seems gentrification usually needs a base starting point .

The problem is that not only is detroit a sinking ship , But soo is the surrounding suburbs . The loss of car markets and industry , Now add one of the worst climates in the country , Now add one of the worst crime rates and poverty rates in the country in the city of detroit . I really do not feel like any major gentrification will happen any time soon in detroit . I think many people who flee the detroit area , will how ever too too chicago and new york city and contribute too
gentrification there .
I think new york city is the gold standard of gentrification , The whole island of manhatten has astronomical prices that are still rising! Brooklyn and the bronx have many areas with massive gentrification . New york is becoming a city that only the rich will be able too afford in the future .
The sad part is that new york has almost no middle class . It seems more and more that only the really rich can afford new york city , It also seems like the rest of the people who can live there only live there because of section 8 and housing projects . The thing is that only certain apartments accept section 8 . Upscale gentrifiied apartments usually do not allow section 8 . It seems that now you will begin to lose much of the lower class in nyc as well .

I live in dutchess county , about 2 hours from manhatten . You can see that all of the new york slums really are moving out like a bulls eye target .
I find that the new slums around new york as well as in anywhere in the country will eventually be strung out cities in the exhurbs .

In small urban centers that are strung out over an hour away from the cities will most defiantly become the new slums .
You have lack of transportation , Cheap rents , Strung out isolation from major cities . But urban apartments in these small cities . Small cities with a urban feel that are isolated from big cities are usually less desirable and eventually will be the only place that people who are pushed out by gentrification will be able too afford . It seems like around cities with major
gentrification like chicago and new york the poor inner city populations are pushing out into areas that were once middle class suburbs .

I feel that
gentrification will be different country wide . In areas where jobs are totally loss in places like cleveland and detroit . gentrification may never happen.

In newer structure urban center cities like los angeles the gentrification maybe different as well . The whole lay out of a urban sprawl in los angeles with mostly fairly knew structures . Seems much less desirable for gentrification .

What is interesting is that this gas cirsis will defiantly be a boiling point for gentrification . Living in walking distance to work will be much more disirable than it has been since the 1950's . I find it interesting that mayor bloomberg wants too raise the taxes on gas in new york state . He is not stupid! He is not the mayor of rural new york! He is the mayor of new york city! He knows that the higher the gas prices will be! The more rich surbubanites who previously abanonded the cities will move back to the urban cities! This means more wealth and prosperity for nyc!
It seems if you only have soo many housing units in major cities . With the idea of many people from the suburban people moving back too the urban centers . It seems that much of the urban poor populations might get swaped into areas in suburbs having no or little choice in the matter.

Originally Posted by ckhthankgod

Existtoexit, what is interesting is how people seem to forget that the Asians that are here are also the cream of the crop ad are a relatively small group here as well. So, that can be said almost about any recent immigrant group. Also, many Asian groups, especially from Southeast Asia, also are dealing with many issues that plague inner cities across the country. So, it depends on the Asians one talks about. The, you have to consider that most of the Asians involved actually are people that come to get an education here in the states and then, stay here. So, a lot of times the Asians are ones that might decide to stay after getting an education, even if they initially weren't going to do so. You also have to think of the criteria of the IQ stats as to how many people did ey involve, what determines such and so on. So, the "model minority thing" is a myth that Asians didn't make up, but Whites used to show Blacks that, "Hey, they are of color too. So, why can't you guys do it?" with out taking into account many complex factors.

Then, in terms of Africans, why is it that in other countries like England, that the African immigrants there are the most educated people overall, percentage wise? Then, in Canada, Blacks are more assimilated than any other visible minority group and most of the Blacks there come from the Caribbean. So, again, it depends on where you get your information from and the examples one uses.

As far as the Irish, while they were used before African slaves, they also were in conflict withe England for centuries. Hence the reason why many were used before Africans. Many Irish were used as indentured servants too, but still got their freedom and could assimilate into the larger society. Also, why would England get involved in the potato famine, when they had been enemies for such a long time? It's not like the countries are one and the same, anyway.

As far as slaves getting food and shelter, at least the people in industrial England had choices, unlike the slaves. Also, many slaves were treated poorly, had their culture/language/customs/names pretty taken from them unlike those of industrial England or the people in the Irish potato famine. I'm sure the slaves had long days too and they would get punished for trying to read and write, something we now take for granted. Also, Black slaves were in a sense strong physically and were more visible due to being more visible to the larger society.

Also, there is still slavery in the US and all over the world, but today it is in a different form. You can check this site out for an example:Free the Slaves - Interactive Map It's not just the things you see or hear about in places like Darfur, but occurs even in our own country.


As for the original topic, I think with gentrification taking place in many major cities, you could see the trend of flight reversing itself with the money coming back into the cities, but a lot of this depends on the vision by those that are making these changes to these urban neighborhoods. This is occurring in my city of Syracuse, NY with Syracuse University being involved in quite a few changes they are proposing. It will be interesting to see what the makeup of the people will be when things are all said and done. it might be true that Detroit might be a city that does this later down the line due to it's history in terms of relations with Blacks and Whites. That could all change though as the younger generations come up though.

[Debrajean]

I grew up in an all white farm town in Arkansas and then moved to the 92% predominantly black city of Benton Harbor, MI about 20 years ago. Before coming here, I had never developed any prejudices whatsoever. But I was immediately "profiled" when I came, as an uppety, white, scared person. But since I wasn't at all uppety OR scared, and as a young person, I had a very "in your face" response to provocation... I quickly changed the opinion of those who approached me.

Truth is, both sides profile one another. It's just human nature. But NONE of us can learn what the other is learning from their side of the fence. I have no prejudice, but I've been accused of having prejudiced motives and knowing full well that I did not and that what they were experiencing was not "prejudice" but "LIFE happens", I therefore I get my feathers ruffled when I hear blacks talking about encountering prejudiced whites because from my experience, blacks often see prejudice where prejudice simply does not exist.

Nonetheless, blacks DO experience prejudice. And whenever I see it I'm absolutely mortified!!

I have been the piano player at our assembly for the past 20 years. My beloved pastor and close personal friend, and about 60% of our congregation, are black. In our assembly, we have gotten way past the whole racial profiling/ prejudice thing and we forget that we are even of varying colors now... until we're reminded by others for some reason.

But back to my point, ... I've learned something, white people's experience with blacks is less real experience with black individuals and more general observance of their lifestyle and judging them "from afar", and vice versa. We all need to weed through a lot of misunderstandings about our different ways.

Because, generally speaking, we ARE different in various ways. That's not to put EVERYBODY who's one color in one boat, because there are always exceptiongs....but generally speaking, we do have different cultures and tendencies. And neither is better or worse than the other but our differences often cause us to draw certain conclusions about one another that may not be true.

And it hurt when someone once judged me as trying to act all "uppety" just because I didn't scream and fall out on the casket at my mother's funeral. That is simply not the way I mourn. The majority of blacks however..... is another story. .....but the way I express it may seem cold to someone who comes from a different culture and has not experienced other types of mourning.

Some of the "differences" that people in this area will tout...is actually not differences in black and white so much as it's differences in SOUTH and NORTH bred people. I grew up on fried chicken; grits; greens and "real" cornbread (not that jiffy mix!!) and red eye gravy and frog legs and cornbread dressing (which we just call "DRESSING"), and plenty of watermelon! Michigan whites think that's black soul food. In Arkansas, it's just food, every day just...."good eatin'".

Before I shut up, I want to mention the music issue because I think most people underestimate the power of music. Music you haven't heard in a long time, can evoke memories of childhood....fond or not, and immediately change your mood. When you hear the type of music you love, you feel happier. When you hear music that is annoying, you become annoyed. When you hear party-music, you feel like partying. When you're trying to focus on something, music may be distracting. Music is a spirit, and it affects your spirit.

But .... Music that makes YOU feel like partying or feel happy, may make me UTTERLY annoyed or even homicidal!! Rap music makes me want to scream and run violently down the hill and blow everybody up. ...okay, maybe not that bad, but close! lol

Rap music makes me think of two things...the young annoying dudes in the car next to me at a red light who either think this 43 year old white woman really wants or needs to hear their filthy language and racial slurs-filled rap music or yes, ghettos...

why? because that part, I see on t.v., whenever the main character goes to the hood, we see prostitutes (who we all picture with seductive, skimpy clothes and very high heels, and in Benton Harbor the prostitutes don't fit that profile), and we see some black dude carrying a big boom box on his shoulder, and we hear rap music and see flashing business lights telling us that cigarettes and liqour and/or dancing girls are inside, and someone usually gets killed or goes in to some secret back, smoke filled lounge to discuss "business" with a very shady and dangerous looking king of the hoodlum type person.

And sometimes as I'm driving somewhere, I pass a scene that looks almost like that t.v. scene ...there's the black dude with a white tshirt and a boom box...and I hear the rap music, and there's a liqour store there.....yep, close enough.... and the thought comes to my mind "I need to get up outta here".

Don't tell me you don't have a certain image pop into your head when you hear a symphony orchestra or Beethoven. Does that sound like the music you'd hear at a backyard BBQ with "Billy Bob"?? What I'm saying is that we all have images associated with various things like styles of music...names ....activities, etc. So, who's fault is it?

So, don't get mad at me. I'm fighting my own problems of stereotyping.

So if you're going to try to fix my mental image, please do so gently, without violent accusations and incorrect assumptions. Then it may not sabotage the very effect you seem to be trying to accomplish.

[sav0320]

Originally Posted by Mr. 248

it seems that no matter what black people do to prove themselves, white America still does not trust us.

Please defend yourselves.

Well, my cracka ass better divorce my black wife! Apparently this is not accepted in Detroit! WHAT WAS I THINKING?!?


PS - she grew up in some total craphole on Woodward in the schitty, moved to Canton at about the age of ten, and now she has a Master's degree. Product of her environment? Ever see Trading Places? hehe The smart blacks flee as well.

[Tricia819]

Originally Posted by Mr. 248

I've been reading so many posts and seeing so many white people voice opinions that would regularly be kept at the kitchen dinner table with their families in the confines of their own homes. However, because anyone can hide behind a screenname and speak their minds, it shows me how divided the city of Detroit is. I've been living in Southfield most of my life and I just cannot understand why so many WHITE, yes WHITE people feel threatened by the city? Is it so hard to believe that civilized middle to upperclassed BLACKS can live competently in an environment with whites as well without turning it into a "Ghetto?" And by the way, that term seems to just be a code for a predominantly black area, no matter the property values or upkeep. If rap music is heard playing loudly it is a "ghetto." If rock music is heard playing loudly, it is considered to root from the rebellious youth of white suburbia. I am not a racist, before someone calls me one. I went to private school all my life, and was surrounded at all times by more white than black. I'VE EVEN DATED A BEAUTIFUL WHITE WOMAN, however - it seems that no matter what black people do to prove themselves, white America still does not trust us.

Please defend yourselves.

I guess my definition of "ghetto" is different. I consider it to mean an area of lower economic/government subsidized housing with a lot of boarded up businesses, burnt out homes, and a high crime rate regardless of what race of people are the majority inhabitants. I'd like to think I wouldn't have a problem living in a predominantly black community as long as it was in an nice neighborhood.

I LOVE Detroit. No, I wouldn't want to live there. It was voted the most dangerous city in the country for a reason. However, I feel perfectly comfortable going to Joe Louis Arena for a Wings game, the Masonic for a play, or one of the hundreds of awesome restaurants down that way.

I think Southfield gets a bad rep because of its proximity to Detroit.

[Tricia819]

Originally Posted by Mr. 248

Looks like most of you are missing the mark here. I did not say speak of Detroit at all...never mentioned anything about an impoverished area. I said, Southfield, so
1. those who know nothing about Detroit, and only come here to visit family - your not really an authority on the topic
2. Mr. Kool, explain where Southfield does not meet any of those standards you mentioned
3. The median house income of Southfield is well above minimum wage, so food stamps or not, Southfield is far from poor.

We live in a society that has many double standards - true. Blacks feel comfortable around blacks, whites feel comfortable around whites - but when it gets to the point that even the GOOD predominantly black areas get stereotyped as "ghetto" - what does that say about those who feel that way? Detroit is one of the most segregated cities in the U.S. so whether all of you know it or not, your mindstate has progressively gotten more racially disparate than the average American. Since statistics don't lie, basically the majority of whites in Michigan carry an overwhelmingly separatist attitude toward living conditions. Without taking this conversation too far and opening up too many societal wounds that have yet to heal in our city, all I'm saying is that Southfield is a victim of racial profiling - it is obvious by everyone's own words - I'm not some overly racial angry black man, I'm simply a researcher and all of you are my primary resources. Just face it people - segregation - even in some of our nicer suburbs - is still quite prevalent.

As a teacher I absolutely argree that segregation is still prevalent. However, I think it exists more on an economic basis. Those with money (regardless of race) pull their kids out of failing public schools and send them to private schools. Those who can't afford it have to make due with what we have.

[Tricia819]

Originally Posted by scottmi

Now YOU are lumping white people into a large group bytalking about "facts" that you say are "hidden away" and more subtle than the stuff we see concerning blacks. If all white people act like this but keep it secret, how can you prove we're so two-faced?

Face it - even if white people are still bad at a lot of things (cheating / stealing / lying / etc.) at least whites typically know where to draw the line. We try not to make horrible living environments for our children by ENCOURAGING drug use / sales....we TRY to maintain a family environment, even if we go about is backwards (so whites DO marry as opposed to the majority of Blacks) and we TRY to focus on education in order to make sure we have a better chance of getting ahead in life legally (so we encourage young people to go to college and avoid lives of crime).


Like I said, not all Blacks act the way I've personally observed but not all whites are as deceptive and evil as you claim them to be. It's just of the two races, Blacks' problems seem to be more easily trackable and are facts, not assumptions.

At least "whites" know where to draw the line? Honey, I know a few white men who have no idea what the line is much less where to draw it.

[renault]

Great article that shows how blacks can be just as racist, if not more so, than whites.

The end of white flight
The End of White Flight - WSJ.com

[Happy Cells]

White flight is INEVITABLE when crazed liberals get into power and start forcing stupid socialist / communist / racist policies down people throats.

INEVITABLE!