[Bhaalspawn]

Originally Posted by Hoarfrost

Of course White Flight is the most self-defeating concept ever thought up, if unintentionally. A state's economy depends on a functional relationship between its Urban Metro areas, which are its centers of commerce, and its suburban and rural areas. If the Urban areas, the commercial centers, fail, then the ripple effect will cripple the economy in the entire state. This is the issue with a lot of rust-belt states in general.

Look at areas like the major cities of Texas, Atlanta, Georgia, among other places where there hasn't been an exodus of the white population; The state economies are not near as horrible as the Rust-Belt economies.

The people of Michigan will learn, one way or another, that the only way to be prosperous is to step into the 21st century and get along(if only to work). As for me I'm leaving you bunch of kids behind.

What came first, the chicken or the egg? Is the reason why there hasn't been an exodus of the white population that those cities have thriving downtown business districts?

That's all very nice and touchy-feeley, but whites fleeing crime and bad culture and moving out to the suburbs isn't what killed the rust belt cities; it's not as though they can't commute to downtown. (For that matter, why not blame any such declines on poor people having kids they can't afford to have, crime, and drugs, etc., instead of the people righteously fleeing it?)

[Bhaalspawn]

Originally Posted by pirate_lafitte

I am gioing to bring this all to a point. Humans tend to want to live around people who look like them. It is a trait in human nature. There is initial fear of anyone who looks different and no statistics can ingrain that in anyone.

Translation: "We're all just excrement-grubbing racial collectivists by our very human nature."

Statistics justmake it easier to justify attitudes.

Could you please elaborate on what exactly you're trying to get at with this comment about statistics?

"White flight" happened early on because alot of people just didn't want anyone who wasn't white living there. Why? One of the goals of suburbia was to move into a community where everyone was of the same race and to keep it "white". Why do you think there were restrictive covenants and sundown laws in many places?

That might have been true decades ago but is that still an issue today?

Alot of people act under the "my property values will go down" mentality. Well, if one sells a house at less than market value, almost anyone could get that house, and that happens alot. In the end the reason some residents move into a certain neighborhood knowing they'll be the "one" minority there, disappears. The very lowlifers for whom many people try to escape seem to follow.

So you think it's merely an issue of property devaluation? I get the sense that some people's vision of white flight is that the dumb widdle whiteys (who have pea sized, racist brains) start panicking and running around like panicked chickens, bumping into one another the moment a single black family moves in.

I suspect that the reality is very different and that it takes a good number of families to move in, perhaps with unruly children who cause problems at school or petty crimes that scare the white folks. Many cities have different areas, some of which have inexpensive housing. I suspect that those areas go downhill first and that then property values start to decrease along with an increase in crime and a decrease in school quality. Might Southfield be a good example of this?

In your view, is there any basis at all in reality for white people and middle class black people to flee from predominantly black areas? Do you think the crime and education statistics are legitimate or are they all fiction?

[ckhthankgod]

I think it is a combination of people immediately falling into stereotypes, having a victim mentality(on both sides), taking money and resources with them or abandoning them in certain neighborhoods, prejudice/racism(there is a difference) at least to some degree, not standing up for themselves or what they believe in and so on. This really is not a simple subject and I think the term is more based on economics and resources, which in turn makes race becomes a part of the equation a lot of times in this country.

With that said, there are places where the demographics have flipped and those communities still maintain a high standard of living.

[pirate_lafitte]

Originally Posted by Bhaalspawn

Translation: "We're all just excrement-grubbing racial collectivists by our very human nature."

What I was trying to say is that by human nature we tend to gravitate towards people who look like us and tend to fear those that don't. The difference between today and yesterday is that most people in those days didn't bother to think past their feelings and they just came out and said how they felt. Today it is more hidden and in many cases people do try to get over their prejudice and do better. The ability to think past that and get to the individual makes a difference though.

Could you please elaborate on what exactly you're trying to get at with this comment about statistics?

Some people use statistics such as the difference between SAT scores, crime rates and other issues dealing with race to justify not liking another race. That is what I meant.[/quote]


[quote]That might have been true decades ago but is that still an issue today?[/QUOTE}
True. The era of sundown towns is gone. I was talking about the beginnings. I should have elaborated more. Not all people think like this, but some people wish for the days when there were sundown laws and restrictive covenants.

So you think it's merely an issue of property devaluation? I get the sense that some people's vision of white flight is that the dumb widdle whiteys (who have pea sized, racist brains) start panicking and running around like panicked chickens, bumping into one another the moment a single black family moves in.

All I can say is that some (not all) would think their property values would go down if blacks move in. Some people actually do operate under that fear

I suspect that the reality is very different and that it takes a good number of families to move in, perhaps with unruly children who cause problems at school or petty crimes that scare the white folks. Many cities have different areas, some of which have inexpensive housing. I suspect that those areas go downhill first and that then property values start to decrease along with an increase in crime and a decrease in school quality. Might Southfield be a good example of this?

In your view, is there any basis at all in reality for white people and middle class black people to flee from predominantly black areas? Do you think the crime and education statistics are legitimate or are they all fiction?

It would take many families with unruly children and low rent mentalities to make an area go downhill, but how does it start? I would agree that expensive housing can be an attractive thing to some people who have these habits. What I was trying to say is that some people really do have bad feelings and some people actually do leave a neighborhood thinking it would get bad before it actually does get bad. Some people actually do think this way. Not all people bring in problems. As for unruly children, that cuts across every race.
As white whites and middle class blacks fleeing predominantly black areas, many people are looking for safer areas. I can understand that. What i am speaking of is the persons who assume an area will get bad if a fwe black families move in.
Crime and education statistics can be misleading. While there can be truth to it, you have to ask "Why"? Why are the statistics like this?

What I was trying to say is that the ugly side of human nature gets in the way of having better race relations.

[Nearborn]

Let's cut to the chase here. What percentage of a particular race moving into a neighborhood occupied mostly by another race would constitute a "neighborhood in transition" from one race to another in your opinion?

Instead of implying that white people who leave when a few black people move in are somehow bigoted or racist, why don't you put the blame for a declining neighborhood right were it belongs? On the backs of the people doing the stealing, shooting, drug dealing, scamming and irresponsible procreating?

Louis Farrakhan should take a note here: You know how "your people" could really get over on "the white man"? Move into a white neighborhood, drive the prices down when the scared white folks bail out, pick up the houses for a song and then keep the neighborhood the same as it was when you moved in, except for all the white people! Neighborhoods do not go bad because of who moves out! Neighborhoods go bad because of who moves IN! To contend otherwise is to somehow admit that black people can't maintain a nice neighborhood because they're black. Get over it already. There are many nice black neighborhoods. A black guy is a major party's candidate for the highest office in the land. It's time to stop worrying about the guy moving out and to start holding the guy who moves IN to the same standards you moved to the neighborhood for. And "neighborhood" could be a metaphor for ANY geographic or social grouping.

[pirate_lafitte]

Originally Posted by burgler09

Is it our fault white people choose to better their lives and move out than to live in a dumpy ghetto and try to brag about how much worse their hood is? No, I think not.

I am going to attempt to explain what I am trying to say. When people leave areas for safer places to live, understandable, but when there are people that freak out just because there are a few people of a different race moving in, that is when things get bad. I am not going to hide the fact that people do leave neighborhoods to find safer places to live. that is understandable. I am also not going to hide the fact that there are people who leave certain areas simply due to demographics changing.

[OracioJackson]

As anyone who has studied immigration patterns knows, there are "push" and "pull" factors to any mass migration of a group. In the mid-20th century, the push factor in Detroit was a rising crime rate, appalling city services, and ridiculously failing schools. The pull factors to the suburbs were just the opposite and added the value of new highways offering commuter access and more wide-open real estate. Race may have been a factor but becomes irrelevant with the noted dramatic rise in crime. (Violent crime showed NO decline in Detroit throughout the 20th century until 2000. This trend was reversed in 2007 when the FBI once again called Detroit the most dangerous city in the US.) The "white"-ness of white flight is not important when this is considered - black people don't want to live in a bad neighborhood either.

Regarding Southfield, I was not aware of its new status as "ghetto." It always seemed okay to me, but I mostly stay Downtown, Downriver, Highland Park, and Grosse Pointe. Doesn't matter anyway, I live in L.A. now because there are no teaching jobs in the shrinking (and crumbling) Detroit Public Schools.

[Banx]

Originally Posted by Mr. 248

I've been reading so many posts and seeing so many white people voice opinions that would regularly be kept at the kitchen dinner table with their families in the confines of their own homes. However, because anyone can hide behind a screenname and speak their minds, it shows me how divided the city of Detroit is. I've been living in Southfield most of my life and I just cannot understand why so many WHITE, yes WHITE people feel threatened by the city? Is it so hard to believe that civilized middle to upperclassed BLACKS can live competently in an environment with whites as well without turning it into a "Ghetto?" And by the way, that term seems to just be a code for a predominantly black area, no matter the property values or upkeep. If rap music is heard playing loudly it is a "ghetto." If rock music is heard playing loudly, it is considered to root from the rebellious youth of white suburbia. I am not a racist, before someone calls me one. I went to private school all my life, and was surrounded at all times by more white than black. I'VE EVEN DATED A BEAUTIFUL WHITE WOMAN, however - it seems that no matter what black people do to prove themselves, white America still does not trust us.

Please defend yourselves.

Because if whites live in a neighborhood where a majority of it is black they will get harrassed, that's just how it is, so why would they put up with it? I'm not trying to generilize, but that's just how it is- tell me one black neighborhood where white's don't stand out like sore thumbs and are made to feel like its not obvious? Just like how you claim when a black person goes to a mostly white neighborhood, heads turn and they feel awkward about sticking out. It's just how it is, they have nothing to defend. BTW, I'm Mexican-American.

[and the]

understandable, but when there are people that freak out just because there are a few people of a different race moving in, that is when things get bad.

Suppose you lived in a nice suburban area that was virtually all white. One day a black family moves in comprised of a single mom and several kids. The mom moved out of the city for the same reason you did: Crime, poor public schools and the draw of gangs corrupting her kids.

The problem is, the high school-aged kids don't see the light. The single mom works all day and instead of going back to their old neighborhood to hang out with their gangster friends, the house next door to you has just become the place to be for the "Lords Of Dysfunktion" gang.

What are you going to do? Keep notes on the gangster kids living next door, call the police and testify against them? Stay home all day, every day so your house doesn't get burglarized and your dog poisoned? Or are you going to sell before your house is next to worthless and move to a neigborhood that the single mom next door can hopefully not afford?

If the people you were running from were white, you'd just be making a good decision for your family, but since they're black, you're starting a wave of "white flight" and are responsible for a vicious cycle of despair and it's YOUR fault that the poor kids can't get a break. IF you're BLACK and you're moving away from neighbors like this, you're just trying to better your family's position. If you're WHITE, you're giving up on the neighborhood and refusing to make a stand and contributing to bad neighborhoods.

It's easy to talk in a sociology class about all the paranoid white folks who move or "freak out" as soon as someone who doesn't look like them moves in. In reality, it's not the Huxtables that most of us ran from.

[merit1sje]

I can't believe that the senior moderator allowed this to go on as long as it has! I for one appreciate your opinion and observation Mr. 248! The responses that I have read concerning your post, and I read through a lot of them, did nothing but confirm to me that the ill's that we still have concerning race, are alive and well and for that I am truly saddened and sorry.
I'm willing to bet that the number of blacks looking to get away from the things that drag them down are just about equal to the number of whites who are looking to do the same. The difference may be that blacks are less able to escape that environment than whites. Blacks have always been held down. I mean, C'mon! Most of us came here of our own free will for the sake of a more promising life. No impeidments, no boundries, everything wide open and limited only to our imaginations! Most blacks came here against their will. Bonded into slavery and servitude, bought and sold as property. No one can dispute that! Blacks have never REALLY had the same opportunities that whites have had. Mr. 248's accurate observation and understanding of humiliation whereas it bonds both sides, is a true statement of what will set us free......