A President like Newt Gingrich could Save Michigan from Itself (Detroit: real estate, houses)

[applegate]

Newt could not find his a$$ with both hands tied behind his back.
Another republican give tax breaks to the rich. big oil is just fine raping the people. Hillary in 08

[jumpygh]

Originally Posted by Mommyofboys

If you're jealous of what union workers make, then why don't you become one? If their jobs are so easy, why didn't you go for the good money?

Auto workers work a lot of overtime. That is why they make so much. If they are willing to put in the hours then they should be paid accordingly. I just don't understand why you would blame the workers. They are just trying to make a decent living. I'm sorry, but NO ONE is worth millions. The Big Three will never go out of business. And did you know, that the The Big Three jobs you mentioned left the state are being offered to the employees who presently work in Michigan? They are even offering relocation expenses. Some of the wages are even higher than here so what you said doesn't even make any sense (FYI...wages tend to adjust depending on the cost of living in that area).

If you look at the average cost of a home in Michigan + the average salary, they don't add up. It's like that all over the country. Inflation is horrible and unless you make decent money your gonna drowned in debt. It's funny how all that works. They expect you pay more for everything but want to pay you less. How will that ever work? It's not just that way with auto works but with Teachers, Police, etc. Workers need unions. Is it just the UAW you have a problem with or is it all unions in general? Teachers? Firefighters? Police? Construction? Because it sounds more like your beef isn't just with the auto unions but unions as a whole.

Granholm can't control the entire country. As for the UAW, until the cost of living equals out and people start buying cars again (ya know, the little people who don't make 6 figures who are also the majority of the country) it's just gonna be like this like it was in the 80's under Regan. There is NO way another republican will take office again.

Who said I'm jealous of union workers? I'm saying that because of their greed, they are driving the jobs straight out of Michigan. That's undeniable. Even the union bosses recognize this--otherwise, why are they talking about making concessions? Hmm?

Yes, I have a problem with ALL unions. They protect their workers from the market, which the vast majority of workers have to compete in. They are one of the prime reasons for jobs moving out of the country--their pay is way over what they are worth. The only area where unions are doing well is in the government, which has a monopoly, so there's no competition. In any competitive industry, unions have been dying for decades. Faster, please.

[Mommyofboys]

Originally Posted by jumpygh

If you're jealous of what executives make, then why don't you become one? If their jobs are so easy, why don't you go for the good money?

I was just quoting you. LOL!

I'm sorry you have a problem with unions as a whole. That is your personal choice. I don't think for a second unions are what is wrong with the state or country. I wish you luck :-)

[scottmi]

Unions aren't what's bad, although paying uneducated workers too much money is part of Detroit's problem.

You see, Detroit's big issue is that when the auto folks started axing jobs, these people who had gotten used to $20+/hr. salaries honestly believed they were worth that amount in other fields. Most of these people didn't even have any sort of degree or college experience!

So when the market became flooded with all these dumb workers employers took advantage and hired them for cheap even if it lowered their level of quality because it didn't matter - in their minds cheap labor was a bigger incentive than customer satisfaction.

THAT'S why the unions here in Michigan are/were bad. Becaus ethe union members were high-paid hillbillies.

[Mommyofboys]

Originally Posted by scottmi

THAT'S why the unions here in Michigan are/were bad. Becaus ethe union members were high-paid hillbillies.

WOW! I feel like I'm trying to have a debate with a 10 year old. I think your response speaks for its self.

[tuebor]

I wish someone with knowledge of the subject would start a separate thread on unions...

Originally Posted by jumpygh

Yes, I have a problem with ALL unions. They protect their workers from the market, which the vast majority of workers have to compete in. They are one of the prime reasons for jobs moving out of the country--their pay is way over what they are worth. The only area where unions are doing well is in the government, which has a monopoly, so there's no competition. In any competitive industry, unions have been dying for decades. Faster, please.

The idea of a completely free market is an abstraction that may be useful for teaching sophomores the rudiments of economics, but it is nothing more than a rhetorical ploy when real policy issues are under discussion. Well, two can play that game.

Unions are NOT protecting workers from the market. The Taft-Hartley Act in the late 40's tipped the scales in favor of capital, and it has gotten even worse since Reagan. And outside of the developed world, workers' rights are routinely ignored. This means that workers' wages around the world are held BELOW their fair market value (by any reasonable estimate of that slippery concept). Oppressive regimes like China use coercion to undercut US wages, and corporations are free to move their operations to wherever the wages are lowest, even though workers are not free to bargain for higher wages in those countries. That is NOT a free market in labor. That is a market that is heavily skewed in favor of capital.

I've said all this several times already on this forum, and I have yet to get a rebuttal. Why do I have to keep repeating myself? Do right-wingers really not understand the concept of the "race to the bottom"?

The policies of those who idolize the free market gave us the Great Depression. More recently, they have given us a world in which top executives in the US make 400x what their workers make, and millions in the developing world try to survive on $2 a day. Are we really going to talk about people getting paid "what they are worth"? God have mercy on us all.

[magellan]

Originally Posted by tuebor

I wish someone with knowledge of the subject would start a separate thread on unions...



The idea of a completely free market is an abstraction that may be useful for teaching sophomores the rudiments of economics, but it is nothing more than a rhetorical ploy when real policy issues are under discussion. Well, two can play that game.

Unions are NOT protecting workers from the market. The Taft-Hartley Act in the late 40's tipped the scales in favor of capital, and it has gotten even worse since Reagan. And outside of the developed world, workers' rights are routinely ignored. This means that workers' wages around the world are held BELOW their fair market value (by any reasonable estimate of that slippery concept). Oppressive regimes like China use coercion to undercut US wages, and corporations are free to move their operations to wherever the wages are lowest, even though workers are not free to bargain for higher wages in those countries. That is NOT a free market in labor. That is a market that is heavily skewed in favor of capital.

I've said all this several times already on this forum, and I have yet to get a rebuttal. Why do I have to keep repeating myself? Do right-wingers really not understand the concept of the "race to the bottom"?

The policies of those who idolize the free market gave us the Great Depression. More recently, they have given us a world in which top executives in the US make 400x what their workers make, and millions in the developing world try to survive on $2 a day. Are we really going to talk about people getting paid "what they are worth"? God have mercy on us all.

And don't forget what making the credit markets as "free" and "un-encumbered" as possible over the last five years has done to the American housing market. If you're unfamiliar with what's going on with the credit/mortgage markets this past week, you need to get informed quickly.

u.s. housing market credit - Google News

The subprime market shakeup is now starting to spread to the conforming market.

Give the American economy extra rope, and it seems to hang itself every time. As I've said on this forum as well, people need to throw out their copy of Atlas Shrugged (or at least put it on a high shelf) and come back to Earth.

Peace.

[scottmi]

Originally Posted by Mommyofboys

WOW! I feel like I'm trying to have a debate with a 10 year old. I think your response speaks for its self.

Whatever. What else do these workers with unrealistic ideas of how much they're worth have to add to the economy in some meaningful way once they aren't in the auto industry?

The fact that a person with just a High School Diploma or GED can be making $20+/hr. speaks for itself when many college grads don't even make that much for the first few years of their careers (well actually, many careers keep people in the $40k-$50k range so it could be much longer than just a few years).


In a room full of college educated people and union folk, I'd rather be with the college people any day.

[Mommyofboys]

Originally Posted by scottmi

The fact that a person with just a High School Diploma or GED can be making $20+/hr. speaks for itself when many college grads don't even make that much for the first few years of their careers (well actually, many careers keep people in the $40k-$50k range so it could be much longer than just a few years).

Actually, that's not true, they do have apprenticeship wages till you learn the trade then you make full scale. It takes a few years till you get your journeymen card. And it's no where NEAR $20/hour. But I'm sure you already knew that.

Originally Posted by scottmi

In a room full of college educated people and union folk, I'd rather be with the college people any day.

I'm sure they'd be excited to have you......

[scottmi]

The fact that uneducated types can even make that much nowadays regardless of whether they have to be an apprentice or whatever (which is not always the case...I've seen many blue-collar union & non-union jobs in Michigan that START people $20/hr or HIGHER) is besides the point. The way it should be is smart people make money, blue collar worker bees settle for little until they learn to get a better a education.

Otherwise, what's the incentive to even go to school?