Are unions still a good thing? (rent, lease, jobs)

[tuebor]

Remember the unreliable gas guzzlers that Detroit was turning out in the 70s? Remember how lots of American consumers turned their backs on the Big 3 after that? Whose fault was that? Not unions.

How about healthcare costs? Why is the US health system the most expensive in the world? Who is to blame for that? Not unions.

Why is healthcare the concern of employers, anyway? Pres. Truman tried to set up a national healthcare system in the 40s. If he had succeeded, US carmakers wouldn't now have to add thousands of dollars to the price of every car to pay for employees' healthcare. Who shot down Truman's plan? Not unions.

What about NAFTA, GATT, and other free trade initiatives? These free trade policies have helped knock down tariffs, but they don't adequately address labor and environmental issues, which means that other countries can undercut the cost of manufacturing in the US by keeping their workers' wages artificially low and allowing manufacturers to pollute the environment. Whose fault is this? Not unions.

This brings us, once again, to the "race to the bottom". Right-to-work was the first step in this direction. Before US workers were undercut by nations like China, workers in the Great Lakes region and the Northeast were undercut by the states in the South, after the Taft-Hartley act allowed them to become right-to-work states.

I am not so confident that the hard-won laws that protect workers will not be rolled back without an organized labor movement of some sort. Look at all the horror stories about Wal-Mart. That's the future of the American wage earner if workers cannot act collectively.

I must admit, however, that while I find it easy to rebut those who blame unions for Michigan's economic woes, I have a harder time answering another point about the UAW in particular. I keep hearing about a UAW mindset or attitude--perhaps the problem is primarily cultural rather than economic. I haven't had much first-hand interaction with UAW people, but I've heard too many anecdotes from those who have to dismiss them as mere anti-union prejudice. And I do blame the UAW for endorsing Reagan.

[jimdhen]

To answer that question reminds me of a question Dr. Phil asks people when they outline what got them to where they are and while he listens to them defend their actions, he will frequently say:

"And how's that working for you?"

We compete in a global economy. Right, wrong or indifferent that's where we are in this world. If the businesses bankrupt themselves due to higher wages than their non-union competitors, what good does that do anyone? Yep, the suits will take more than their fair share but get over it.

[virgokid1]

I have a friend who works for Ford. He gets the first day of hunting season off, paid. Meanwhile that day, Honda and Toyota are kicking our tail.

I have heard people say that unions have ruined much of our economy, however terrible management and greed at all levels of the corporation are to blame. From greedy executives, to greedy shareholders, to greedy lawyers and their lawsuits, built-in obsolescence, lack of truly competitive & quality-built vehicles, living on past laurels from half-a century ago (sock-hop, grease lightning days) like the Mustang and F-series truck while european and Japanese car makers are busy outselling us from economy class all the way to luxury vehicles..

I'll be honest, all those "Buy American. Buy UAW." bumper stickers don't really have any meaning anymore. It's a known fact that Honda and Toyota both have many many plants in the US that hire regular American employees just like the Big 3. And you think the Big 3 don't build plants in Mexico, China and other countries? They sure as hell do. I think the only people who care about "American Loyalty" so far as buying American products are the lowest end employees who somehow manage to get a $25/hr salary without any education. naturally they should be concerned, rather care, about their own jobs, but it's not you or I that they should be angry at... It's the company they work for.. Outsourcing everything from white collar to gray to blue collar jobs.. Health care is another big one which I won't get into.. But health care costs Ford BIG. And how do they pay for these bloated wages AND premium health coverage? I don't know, but closing the Wixom plant is a good sign that those days are coming to an abrupt end. UAW workers are in for a very rude awakening... This is a time of globalization. China is no longer a banana republic that makes cheap counterfeit novelty items. It is an absolute formidable power on the other side of the pacific.

There isn't any quick way to resolve this, but trying to keep the Big 3 alive is like beating a dead horse. There are far too many problems and it's become a blame game now.. One day it's the UAW, the next it's Bill Ford, the next day it's Chinese and Korean cars, etc.. Well instead of sulking, we ought to closely examine what our competition is doing. Not just about following trends to get big tax breaks like building hybrids all of a sudden.. No, I mean by understanding what the Chinese, Koreans and Japanese are doing right. Why can't we attempt to follow their model? Being "proud" of our auto industry's glorious past (like 50 years ago) shouldn't stifle our progress to becoming a better Big 3.

And one more quick word:

I was driving in Allen Park (just past the Detroit Lions practice arena) and I saw a bunch of Meridian auto workers parking their rear ends on the lawn outside the Meridian offices. They had umbrellas, they had coolers with ice cold beverages to suck down, beach chairs, and signs that read: Meridian workers on Strike.

I think I figured out what's wrong with unions that day. Unions act as a "force" which immobilize workers at times, preying on the fact that production will drop if their demands are not met by the corporations. I would say a better term to use, would be extortion. I would hardly call those people "Ambitious" for sitting out in the warm sun under a beach umbrella with ice cold drinks with signs that ask you to honk if you support them. I don't support laziness so I didn't get a chance to honk. To be quite honest, these "workers" time would have been better utilized, had they been searching for other jobs in that time.

To be expected to be babied, pampered and generally "carried" through life like that, should be an embarrassment to themselves and truly a shame to this glorious nation. Whatever happened to hard work, saving your money for the future, and building a better and better product? Somewhere, sometime ago, a beer-chugging, lounge-chair sitting, on-strike auto worker decided to throw that out the window.

[scottmi65]

I hate the fact that unions reward you for longeviety. I heard that Ford cut loose a bunch of people recently and the cut off was nine years seniority. So you could be a hard running person with 4-5 years and get canned while the biggest POS around gets to stay because they have more than nine years.
It seems the union hierchy has the most to lose.
My wifes grandfather had a nice little company that at it's peak employed about 500 people so back in the eighty's the workers strike. After the strike about 200 where brought back. Within 10 years the place was sold and the company went to Ireland. My wife's grandfather said he could not justify paying someone $15.00 an hour to sweep floors(1990 wages).

Keep striking your way right out of a job.

[Stone28]

Originally Posted by dmetro

Nope, they're absolutely obselete. The government now has laws to protect factory workers, so why do we need a union? Personally, I think that the unions allow many people to be overpaid for such simple, unskilled labor.

What about skilled labor union's such as Carpenter's and Iron Workers? Are they obsolete?

[Driller1]

Originally Posted by Stone28

What about skilled labor union's such as Carpenter's and Iron Workers? Are they obsolete?

Great point! They in a sense are brokers for their members. My Dad was a Boilermaker, and worked out of the union hall.

[virgokid1]

What about skilled labor union's such as Carpenter's and Iron Workers? Are they obsolete?

I don't know if they're "obsolete" but I can assume that they are an excellent way to push out the little guy. You either belong to the organization or you dont. THey don't leave much room to be an independent contractor or employee.. You basically HAVE to be part of the system or you just don't get the kind of work that's out there.. In that respect, it's good to belong, but it excludes rather than creates fair and ethical competition. I highly doubt that every independent worker/contractor produces any less quality work than a union employee.

It's not different than a giant conglomerate like Starbucks running mom and pop coffee shops out of business.

[virgokid1]

Just want to add, that it's not unethical but to the little guy it's unfair. That's what capitalism is.. Everyone has the freedoms to grow as big as they want. It's only up to the individual company to play fair.. but there's no such thing as mercy when it comes to competitive business.. It's either push the little guy out of business, takeover/merge, or watch him get smarter and provide healthy competition. Competition forces others to outdo each other and provide customers with better service/products.

[Stone28]

Originally Posted by virgokid1

I don't know if they're "obsolete" but I can assume that they are an excellent way to push out the little guy. You either belong to the organization or you dont. THey don't leave much room to be an independent contractor or employee.. You basically HAVE to be part of the system or you just don't get the kind of work that's out there.. In that respect, it's good to belong, but it excludes rather than creates fair and ethical competition. I highly doubt that every independent worker/contractor produces any less quality work than a union employee.

It's not different than a giant conglomerate like Starbucks running mom and pop coffee shops out of business.

I think this post is very misleading. Unions like the Boilermakers have apprenticeship programs. Who by the way are not payed full rate. When you hire a union Boilermaker you are hiring the very best craftsmen in that trade. A boilermaker pays assesments out of his weekly salary to provide the apprentice's with high quality training. Non -union doesn't do the same and it shows in there safty record.

I don't get the starbucks analogy. Nobody is forced to but there coffee. There's a reason why people go there and there's a reason why companys who want to hire the best and most productive worker's hire skilled union craftsmen.

[virgokid1]

I think this post is very misleading. Unions like the Boilermakers have apprenticeship programs. Who by the way are not payed full rate. When you hire a union Boilermaker you are hiring the very best craftsmen in that trade. A boilermaker pays assesments out of his weekly salary to provide the apprentice's with high quality training. Non -union doesn't do the same and it shows in there safty record.

I don't get the starbucks analogy. Nobody is forced to but there coffee. There's a reason why people go there and there's a reason why companys who want to hire the best and most productive worker's hire skilled union craftsmen.

Good point, good point. I hereby withdraw my statement.