U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Michigan
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 1.5 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Jump to a detailed profile or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Business Search - 14 Million verified businesses
Search for:  near: 
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 05-09-2012, 06:38 AM
 
Location: West Michigan
12,140 posts, read 21,973,631 times
Reputation: 16209

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by roozie1 View Post
i am glad i do not live in Michigan
We are glad you don't as well.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 05-09-2012, 09:31 AM
 
Location: Your computer screen.
5,950 posts, read 4,617,149 times
Reputation: 5759
Quote:
Originally Posted by ram2 View Post
So why didn't the roads get fixed when John Engler raised the state gas tax?
It's not a one-time project. Roads deteriorate within a few years. It's a never ending project. The price of everything is going up. As the article said, the gas tax is not a percentage, but a fixed amount.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-09-2012, 09:36 AM
 
Location: Your computer screen.
5,950 posts, read 4,617,149 times
Reputation: 5759
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bydand View Post
MI roads are only worse than SOME other places. Spend some time in the NE, you will quickly appreciate the road conditions in MI. Plus once you get out of the busy SE corner of the State, the roads get markedly better because of the lower traffic volumes on them.
Not to disagree, but only to suggest that another possibility might be the amount of salt used on the roads? Some areas may not use as much salt or may use sand instead. (Not saying I know this as fact.)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-09-2012, 10:57 AM
 
Location: Michigan
3,218 posts, read 2,715,977 times
Reputation: 2279
Don't forget, it's also more expensive to repair an older road than it is to repair a newer one, and Michigan's roads are probably about as old as dirt. It's pretty likely that quite a lot of pavement is original pavement if not at least more than a decade old.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-09-2012, 11:18 AM
 
4,204 posts, read 3,006,643 times
Reputation: 1832
Quote:
Originally Posted by Retroit View Post
It's not a one-time project. Roads deteriorate within a few years. It's a never ending project. The price of everything is going up. As the article said, the gas tax is not a percentage, but a fixed amount.
If roads deteriorate within a few years, then that means the road repair is shoddy at best. A good road should last 10+ years.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-09-2012, 12:18 PM
 
Location: Grosse Ile Michigan and Sometimes Orange County CA
15,819 posts, read 31,771,034 times
Reputation: 11808
Quote:
Originally Posted by ram2 View Post
Numerous fallacies here. First of all, truck weight DOES make a difference - have you noticed those weigh stations along the freeways? They are not there just for the tourists. Also, the maximum allowable truck weight was increased in 1974 in compensation for the 55mph speed limit so truckers could balance slower speeds with more cargo.

I-75 in northern Ohio is not a toll road but is in better condition than I-75 in southern Michigan. Same weather conditions. The gas tax money collected on the Ohio Turnpike is only used for maintenance on the Turnpike.

Gas tax money is diverted for other pork barrel projects. Jennifer Granholm used state gas tax money to build a turtle fence along US31 by Muskegon. This did nothing to fix potholes. The politicians also let contractors get away with sub-standard work. When I-275 in the western suburbs of Detroit was repaved in 1999, the road was supposed to have a 20 year warranty. However, the politicians caved in to the contractor, John Carlo Construction, and that warranty was nullified.
Some problems comprehending written words here.

I did not say that truck weight makes no difference. I said that the Michigan legal weights make little difference in wear on the roads because: 1. The weight is spread out between more axles (the per axle weight is the same or lower than most other states); and 2. Only about 5% of the trucks are heavy (that means that 95% of the trucks on our roads are no heavier than in any other state). I actually said allowing heavier trucks probably makes a difference, but it is a very small factor in the overall problem. I suggested that this was probably the 15th or 20th cause of wear on our roads. Perhaps this was unclear to you. Maybe it is more understandable now.

I did not say the Ohio toll funds are used to repair other roads. What I said was the toll funds are used to maintain toll roads. Meanwhile the toll road users stop for gas and pay the gas tax that is used to repair other roads. Thus, people who already pay for the road they use are also helping to pay for roads they do not use. Coupled with the fact that thousands of drivers simply pass through the state on the way to another state, this equals a substantial amount of additional revenue that Michigan cannot generate. Toll revenues and gas tax revenues are two different things. They are not the same. Toll revenues pay for toll roads while gas revenues pay for non-toll roads, but people using toll roads pay both forms of revenues even though many of them use only the toll roads. This is a slightly difficult concept becuase it requires an understanding of how someone who is paying to use one road through tolls, also ends up paying for other roads which they do not use when they buy gas in the State. If my computer skills were better, I would draw a chart to help you understand this, but maybe someone here can make a chart for you.

All of the michgan "gas tax" goes to roads, or transportation projects (including transportation of turtles). It is the sales tax on gasolne that is mostly diverted, primarily for schools. The turtle fence was probably actually funded with road funds from gas tax (as opposed to sales tax). It was an environmental expenditure posing as a highway expenditure. Since the highway created the threat to turtles, apparently someone thought that highway funds could be used to protect the turtles. The value to Michigan of saving turtles vs. repairing and maintiaining roads can be debated elsewhere. It would be very difficult to get a "save the turtles" tax passed, so the politicians who are so much more knowlegable than the rest of us about the value of saving turtles simply diverted (some would say stole) the money for a "higher" purpose. Maybe instead of some other Grandholm monument, they could have put her name on the turtle fence and saved money on a fancy building we did not need. Unfortuneately, they could not put the fancy building savings into the road fund, so it would not have helped the road situation. (This is a bit of sarcastic humour that may be confusing, but some of the other readers will get it, just ignore it if it is confusing).
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-09-2012, 12:41 PM
 
Location: Grosse Ile Michigan and Sometimes Orange County CA
15,819 posts, read 31,771,034 times
Reputation: 11808
Quote:
Originally Posted by Retroit View Post


I've spent $0 in my lifetime for repairs. You must have to drive on some pretty bad roads? (Or exaggerating?)

I also question your source for claiming that the freeze-thaw cycle is not the primary cause. The roads pretty much anywhere down south are much better. I doubt they all pay as much as California in gas taxes.

But I do support higher gas taxes for better roads.
Not exaggerating. However there is no way to definitiely know whether a repair was due to potholes rather than to wear or age. Some are easier than others. Tire blows out on impact with a pothole is easy. Multiple alignments - easy. New tie rod ends, shocks, and control arm - less easy but still pretty clearly attributable to potholes. Leaking intake manifold gasket, cracked radiator (not due to freezing), failed wheel bearing, broken brake line, leaking cooling hoses, - much less clear, but IMO still attributable to the rough roads, never had these kind of problems with like aged cars when I lived where the roads were not cratered.

Yes. I drive on some pretty bad roads. There are parts of Jefferson (in or near Del Rey) where I cannot realstically drive my Camaro at all. That is not our worst road. The road we live on barely qualifies as paved. The southbound lane is essentially impassible and you have to drive in the middle of the street and just stop and pull over when another car comes. The greatest damage occurs with freeway potholes if you hit them at high speeds. There is an access road/entrance ramp onto the Southbound I-75 in or near Southgate where it make everyone laugh because the road surface is so bad. Even at 15 mph it bounces everyone and everything all over the place, and you are supposed to be accelerating up to 70 MPH opn that road/ramp.

Freeze thaw is not the primary cause of our roads being worse than elsewhere. Freeze thaw does a lot of damage, but it can be repaired and it is repaired in most places I have visited recently (at least more repaired than it is here). If freeze thaw were the primary reason our roads rre worse, then our roads would be the same as every cold weather state - they aren't. They are worse than most states I have visited recently (Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Iowa, North and South Dakota, Montana, Wyoming, Idaho, Washington, Pensylvania, New York, Massachusetts. There may have been one or two states in that mix with roads as bad as ours, but most were somewhat, or considerably better.) We are not the only state that has fallen behind in road repair and maintainence, but we certainly seem to be one of the worst.

The big problem we are facing is not the condition of our roads today as much as what the condition will be in three or four years. Even if we pass a new tax now, it will be three or four years before work can begin and probably six or eight years before it is completed, possibly longer. We are going to have to pay for bad choices by our prior governments for a long time.

I am hoping that this new emulsifier pavement recycling system used in CA will eventaully become useable here. It seems like it will be a good solution to typical freeze thaw damage to asphalt at half the current cost.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-09-2012, 02:32 PM
 
4,204 posts, read 3,006,643 times
Reputation: 1832
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldjensens View Post
Some problems comprehending written words here.

I did not say that truck weight makes no difference. I said that the Michigan legal weights make little difference in wear on the roads because: 1. The weight is spread out between more axles (the per axle weight is the same or lower than most other states); and 2. Only about 5% of the trucks are heavy (that means that 95% of the trucks on our roads are no heavier than in any other state). I actually said allowing heavier trucks probably makes a difference, but it is a very small factor in the overall problem. I suggested that this was probably the 15th or 20th cause of wear on our roads. Perhaps this was unclear to you. Maybe it is more understandable now.

I did not say the Ohio toll funds are used to repair other roads. What I said was the toll funds are used to maintain toll roads. Meanwhile the toll road users stop for gas and pay the gas tax that is used to repair other roads. Thus, people who already pay for the road they use are also helping to pay for roads they do not use. Coupled with the fact that thousands of drivers simply pass through the state on the way to another state, this equals a substantial amount of additional revenue that Michigan cannot generate. Toll revenues and gas tax revenues are two different things. They are not the same. Toll revenues pay for toll roads while gas revenues pay for non-toll roads, but people using toll roads pay both forms of revenues even though many of them use only the toll roads. This is a slightly difficult concept becuase it requires an understanding of how someone who is paying to use one road through tolls, also ends up paying for other roads which they do not use when they buy gas in the State. If my computer skills were better, I would draw a chart to help you understand this, but maybe someone here can make a chart for you.

All of the michgan "gas tax" goes to roads, or transportation projects (including transportation of turtles). It is the sales tax on gasolne that is mostly diverted, primarily for schools. The turtle fence was probably actually funded with road funds from gas tax (as opposed to sales tax). It was an environmental expenditure posing as a highway expenditure. Since the highway created the threat to turtles, apparently someone thought that highway funds could be used to protect the turtles. The value to Michigan of saving turtles vs. repairing and maintiaining roads can be debated elsewhere. It would be very difficult to get a "save the turtles" tax passed, so the politicians who are so much more knowlegable than the rest of us about the value of saving turtles simply diverted (some would say stole) the money for a "higher" purpose. Maybe instead of some other Grandholm monument, they could have put her name on the turtle fence and saved money on a fancy building we did not need. Unfortuneately, they could not put the fancy building savings into the road fund, so it would not have helped the road situation. (This is a bit of sarcastic humour that may be confusing, but some of the other readers will get it, just ignore it if it is confusing).

Truck weight does indeed destroy roads, regardless of what state you live in. 1 truck passing over a stretch of highway does more damage than several thousand cars, regardless of the number of truck axles. When a truck drives on a bridge or overpass, the total weight is what is doing the damage (which is why some bridges have total weight limits). There is a reason truck weigh stations exist.

Go back and re-read my post about GAS TAX money collected on the Ohio Turnpike. That money is only used for Ohio Turnpike repairs, so other freeways in Ohio do not see that money. And if Ohio has more pass-thru vehicles travelling to other states, then Ohio roads will experience more wear-and-tear than Michigan roads.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-09-2012, 02:35 PM
 
4,204 posts, read 3,006,643 times
Reputation: 1832
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldjensens View Post
Not exaggerating. However there is no way to definitiely know whether a repair was due to potholes rather than to wear or age. Some are easier than others. Tire blows out on impact with a pothole is easy. Multiple alignments - easy. New tie rod ends, shocks, and control arm - less easy but still pretty clearly attributable to potholes. Leaking intake manifold gasket, cracked radiator (not due to freezing), failed wheel bearing, broken brake line, leaking cooling hoses, - much less clear, but IMO still attributable to the rough roads, never had these kind of problems with like aged cars when I lived where the roads were not cratered.

Yes. I drive on some pretty bad roads. There are parts of Jefferson (in or near Del Rey) where I cannot realstically drive my Camaro at all. That is not our worst road. The road we live on barely qualifies as paved. The southbound lane is essentially impassible and you have to drive in the middle of the street and just stop and pull over when another car comes. The greatest damage occurs with freeway potholes if you hit them at high speeds. There is an access road/entrance ramp onto the Southbound I-75 in or near Southgate where it make everyone laugh because the road surface is so bad. Even at 15 mph it bounces everyone and everything all over the place, and you are supposed to be accelerating up to 70 MPH opn that road/ramp.

Freeze thaw is not the primary cause of our roads being worse than elsewhere. Freeze thaw does a lot of damage, but it can be repaired and it is repaired in most places I have visited recently (at least more repaired than it is here). If freeze thaw were the primary reason our roads rre worse, then our roads would be the same as every cold weather state - they aren't. They are worse than most states I have visited recently (Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Iowa, North and South Dakota, Montana, Wyoming, Idaho, Washington, Pensylvania, New York, Massachusetts. There may have been one or two states in that mix with roads as bad as ours, but most were somewhat, or considerably better.) We are not the only state that has fallen behind in road repair and maintainence, but we certainly seem to be one of the worst.

The big problem we are facing is not the condition of our roads today as much as what the condition will be in three or four years. Even if we pass a new tax now, it will be three or four years before work can begin and probably six or eight years before it is completed, possibly longer. We are going to have to pay for bad choices by our prior governments for a long time.

I am hoping that this new emulsifier pavement recycling system used in CA will eventaully become useable here. It seems like it will be a good solution to typical freeze thaw damage to asphalt at half the current cost.

Did Michigan's roads get fixed 6-8 years after Engler raised the state gas tax?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-09-2012, 08:01 PM
 
714 posts, read 1,813,286 times
Reputation: 564
  1. Truck weights. Even with all those axles the stress on the highway is significantly greater than other states which limit the truck weights differently than Michigan.
  2. Freeze-Thaw cycles. Michigan is geographically located in a "No Man's Land" for climatic affect on highways. Highways in States which are warmer in the winter or consistently colder in the winter suffer much less than Michigan's roads.
  3. ASR. Alkali-Silica Reaction can be considered a type of cancer that destroys concrete from the inside out. It is caused by a chemical incompatibility between the alkalis in concrete and certain types of rock, such as flints and chilts. Since Michigan has so much natural flint that we named a city in its honor, you can pretty much find this stone everywhere. The ASR reaction is accelerated by use of de-icing agents (gee, we don't salt our roads here do we?) and water (did I mention the wintertime thawing?). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alkali%...ilica_reaction
  4. Poor quality aggregates. The glaciers deposited great sums of good gravel in deep layers throughout Michigan but we have consumed all of it. We now have a choice of aggregate mixes containing flints and chilts (see #3) or limestone, which is relatively weak compared to other rock, is an alkali itself, and often contains sulphur compounds which give rise to damaging sulphuric acid creation in the concrete mixes.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Options
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2011 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram


Over $84,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Michigan
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2014, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25 - Top