[Rohan]

Seriously.. I live in Royal Oak - widely regarded as the "Jewel" of the state in terms of "Happening" places to live that are beautiful and safe. Yet I am ready to throw in the towel on this state.

Why? Several reasons;

Unemployment
Crime on the increase
Inner City Flight (right out to the suburbs)
Over taxed
Hold-Harmless Property Tax system
Inner City Busing out to us.
etc.

While there ARE positives, the negatives are really starting to weigh on my family.

Michigan has largely become victim to its own liberalism, and this liberalism and shortsighted approach to problems has been infringing on our enjoyment of life. For example we have a bus system that buses poor african-americans up to our areas to work. This practice has driven down area wages, removed much needed jobs, increased crime, and reduced property values.

The fact of the matter is, Detroit places a huge burdon on this state, and much of that burdon is entirely unfair as the poor conditions in detroit are largely a factor of their own actions. The rest of us through taxation, higher energy costs, and lower wages end up footing the bill for the shortcomings of an entire population of people. How is that fair?

Another thing that I find to be terribly unfair is our Hold-Harmless property tax system. When I pay my property taxes - which are high - most of the money is put into a pool and allocated statewide. A practice that is thought to "Equalize" the rich and poor areas, but in reality all it does is remove money from the wealthier areas. Our local schools have to impose "Local" property tax increases to get effective money they can use without state intervention, which has the net effect of further increasing our property taxes! How fair is that?

Seriously, tell me why I should stay in Michigan rather than join the 60,000 odd people LEAVING this state every year?

[RedWingsFan]

You are absolutely correct on all accounts. I'm a former Michigander myself. Nine years ago we left and went to live in Las Vegas. Spent 9 years there and made a move recently to the Tampa area of Florida. So far I love it here. All my family still lives in the Detroit area but I'm staying put. You should consider joining that 60,000 and getting out of dodge! :-)

[superstition]

Michigan has largely become victim to its own liberalism, and this liberalism and shortsighted approach to problems has been infringing on our enjoyment of life. For example we have a bus system that buses poor african-americans up to our areas to work. This practice has driven down area wages, removed much needed jobs, increased crime, and reduced property values.

The fact of the matter is, Detroit places a huge burdon on this state, and much of that burdon is entirely unfair as the poor conditions in detroit are largely a factor of their own actions. The rest of us through taxation, higher energy costs, and lower wages end up footing the bill for the shortcomings of an entire population of people. How is that fair?

I don't know if you, or others reading this, are very familiar with why Detroit is the way it is. I'm assuming not, since you make mention of "the shortcomings of an entire population of people"--unless, of course, you're referring to the post-WWII government and lending centers.

When Detroit started losing jobs and getting too expensive, everyone wanted to move out. And if you happened to be white, you could get your mortgage approved to live in the suburbs where the better jobs and schools were. If you happened to be black, no dice. Loans and housing were routinely declined on the basis of skin color. To add insult to injury, they demolished a large, popular, black neighborhood to make room for I75. You can't move to the suburbs (even if you had the money to buy your home cash, the neighborhoods wouldn't necessarily allow it) and now they've bulldozed your home. What's left? The projects.

And so on and so forth, until eventually the riots break out from all of this built up tension. So Detroit, which was already suffering, now has a reputation of being a chaotic, violent mess. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, since the people still there don't expect anything more from the city, and there's no way all these people in Oakland County are moving back in. Do we even need to talk about the education (lack thereof) the local schools are providing? The options are extremely limited.

In light of all this, I honestly don't understand being upset that Detroit residents are being bussed in for jobs that I'm doubting you would be working anyway.

I lived in Rochester and worked in Auburn Hills for a year. My husband grew up in Troy, where his immediate family still lives, and all of his extended family is in Royal Oak. It kills me every time we go visit them, and not because of Detroit. Oakland County contains the most shallow, superficial, racist, spoiled, and arrogant people I have ever met. From their exceedingly comfortable upper-middle class homes, they routinely talk trash about "the D," its people, and joke about how they'll never set foot anywhere outside of Greek Town. I am not saying you are any of these things; I don't know anything about you. But the attitude behind that post echoed so much of what I do know from that area, and it is heartbreaking. Detroit still has a feeling of life clinging to it that the suburbs will never know.

[mariatherese]

Despite common belief, Michigan does not only consist of the southeast area. It is a huge state. Yes, half of Michigan's population is concentrated in the Metro Detroit area. But, what about the other half? We are usually forgotten.

I grew up in the UP and moved to Metro Detroit. I don't like it here in Metro Detroit, I am leaving. But my experiences in Southeast Michigan do not define what Michigan is to me.

To me, and to many of us, Michigan is miles of fresh water, dunes, deer, cedar trees, small towns, friendly people, hiking, camping, I could go on and on.

The Great Lakes are the largest group of fresh water lakes on Earth. They are sometimes referred to as "inland seas!" I know you folks in the Metro Area (which would include myself right now) don't get the chance to enjoy them that much, but its the reason many Michiganders stay.

Once I moved to other parts of the country, I immediately became aware at how lucky I was to have been born in Northern Michigan. I grew up next to deserted lakes that looked like oceans, but in the rest of the country people flock to beaches, stepping on each other, trying to find a small space in the sand. I grew up where there are miles and miles of real nature and hiking trails, while generally most other people's idea of nature is a marked off area with a few trees, a fence around it, and a tennis court.

I am moving out west, as I love to travel and see new things, but I will always be proud to say I'm a Michigander. And when people ask me what it's like in Michigan, I'll tell them to head north, because that's where the real Michigan is... to me.

[Rohan]

Originally Posted by superstition

When Detroit started losing jobs and getting too expensive, everyone wanted to move out.

This simply ignores many other facts. My grandparents all lived in Detroit, and were "Blockbusted" out by African-Americans seeking to have racially pure neighborhoods to find their identities. They would collude to move onto a block, house after house, eventually forcing people to move out to the suburbs with their friends that left before them. Most importantly, during this same time property values dropped, crime went up, and the environment became quite hostile for caucasians.

Do we even need to talk about the education (lack thereof) the local schools are providing? The options are extremely limited.

Once again, this is their problem, created by their lack of proper voting and electing the proper officials. The Detroit Public School system, despite getting a LIONS SHARE of state property tax revenue, continues to be corrupt, inept, and poorly maintained. Mostly due to the citizenry of the city not caring enough to get out and vote in the right people.

In light of all this, I honestly don't understand being upset that Detroit residents are being bussed in for jobs that I'm doubting you would be working anyway.

You are right, *I* wouldn't be working at them, but my neighbors might, or their friends teenager children, or in a few years my kids. But right now, they would have to compete with legions of low income people flooding into the area accepting $5 an hour for Jobs that two decades ago paid $10.00 an hour when the busing wasn't here.

Lets also not forget the Detroit City wanting to shut down the Detroit Zoo, which should rightly be called "Royal Oak Zoo" because they said "Only whitey enjoys that.". To add insult to injury, one of the reasons for financial issues at the Zoo is they bus up legions of poor detroit kids who pay NOTHING to go to the zoo, putting a tremendous strain on the resources of it. They don't employ local Royal Oak residents, instead they Bus up legions of low income people to work there, a further drain on our local economy. The final nail is the entire profit of the zoo is shipped BACK to Detroit, despite OUR police/fire/water/sewage servicing the Zoo for FREE.

Oakland County contains the most shallow, superficial, racist, spoiled, and arrogant people I have ever met.

Did you ever stop to think there may be causes to this? Most of the causes I have already presented here. The entire NAACP pushed low income busing has caused nothing but hardships, headaches, and crime in Oakland County. Residents are tired of having to foot the bill for an entire population of people too inept to care for themselves.

Did you know my water bill went up 35% last month? Why? The reason cited directly on the water bill was "Due to a large number of default payments from Detroit City Residences, a statewide price increase is now required to offset this." Yeah, nice, I have to pay $50 more a quarter because some ghetto trash doesn't take care of his bills?

[superstition]

Rohan, I'm really not understanding where you're coming from.

You blame Detroit education on public officials, yet to have a decent grasp on American politics some sort of prior education is necessary. There is a reason that elementary kids all the way up through high school students are required to take classes on government: it's complicated, and yeah, it might seem pretty easy to us. We've had adequate reading levels to understand our text books, as well as decent teachers. And besides, god knows electing proper leaders is a nation-wide problem hardly restricted to Detroit.

You complain about "ghetto trash" not paying their bills, yet also dispute the buses bringing them into jobs that are unavailable to them in the city. How are they supposed to pay their bills without a job? The people coming in need the money, unlike the neighborhood teenagers for whom $10 may as well be $5. Did you make $10/hr at your first job? I know I didn't!

Most upsetting, at least to me, was your justification of people being "shallow, superficial, racist, spoiled, and arrogant." I don't care how much money you've had to pay. We're all human beings, however much we disagree or make each other angry, and there is no excuse for such horrid behavior towards one another. It is common decency. Perhaps a bit more of that on both sides, and neither city nor suburbs would be in the positions they are in. As it stands now, both are declining more out of the results of their people's bitterness and anger than anything else.

I understand that you, and many others, are frustrated. I was frustrated when I moved there and it took me four months to land a job, and only then one under my skill and experience level. What I am asking you to consider is that this is not one-sided; the suburbs are not the victims, Detroit is not the villain. There are no heroes, here. There are parents in the city trying to raise their children, just as you are trying to raise yours, and I doubt most of them want to see their kids getting into fights or failing out of school any more than you do. But at the end of the day, you have a whole lot more options out there for you and for your kids. You live in a beautiful, safe town with a good school district. A lot of it is the result of your own hard work. A lot of it is also, unfortunately, the result of who your grandparents were.

[Angel Bear]

Oakland County contains the most shallow, superficial, racist, spoiled, and arrogant people I have ever met. From their exceedingly comfortable upper-middle class homes, they routinely talk trash about "the D," its people, and joke about how they'll never set foot anywhere outside of Greek Town. I am not saying you are any of these things; I don't know anything about you. But the attitude behind that post echoed so much of what I do know from that area, and it is heartbreaking. Detroit still has a feeling of life clinging to it that the suburbs will never know.

Amen to that!

I think it's all about perception really.

I regularly go to Detroit for concerts and to eat there. There are new things and the city is slowly being revitalized. It's just going to take time.

I really enjoy going down in the summer...There are things to do Everyone is always friendly to me even though most of the time I'm dressed pretty punk

I want to move too, but for different reasons...mainly, the weather

There's 'good' and 'bad' about every place you live, you know?

I used to want to move to Royal Oak, mainly for the architecture styles of the homes, but hmm, not so sure any more...LOL. What are the people like that live there? LOL Just think my question was answered at some point in this thread LOL.

[mariatherese]

Originally Posted by superstition

Oakland County contains the most shallow, superficial, racist, spoiled, and arrogant people I have ever met. From their exceedingly comfortable upper-middle class homes, they routinely talk trash about "the D," its people, and joke about how they'll never set foot anywhere outside of Greek Town. I am not saying you are any of these things; I don't know anything about you. But the attitude behind that post echoed so much of what I do know from that area, and it is heartbreaking. Detroit still has a feeling of life clinging to it that the suburbs will never know.

I agree. Though I have had the chance to meet a lot of nice people here, both in the suburbs and in the city, there is a strange community divide here that everyone seems to accept. Black and white, rich and poor... there are a lot of snobs in Oakland County! I just don't fit in here with all this labelling! That's not the way I was raised. I am leaving.

[Rohan]

*EVERYONE* wants to live in Royal Oak, no surprise there.

You need to understand, there are a different class/mentality of African-Americans in Michigan than you will find anywhere else on the planet. Even a CASUAL look through City-Data will show you that any city/town/village that has a reasonably higher concentration of African-Americans in Michigan, will have magnificently high crime rates.

Benton Harbor, 4 times the national average of Crime, population only 11,000 people, 55% of them are African-American.

not far from there we have;

Berkley Michigan, 3 times LESS crime than the national average, population only 11,000, 0.6% are African-American.

You can take this data, and apply it to *ANY* location in Michigan. The fact of the matter is, we have a seriously *BAD* population of Minorities in this State.

My facts are pretty well grounded based on living here my entire life, and a degree in economics, as well as being on the Census board for the state. It is undeniable that low-income busing has been rapidly degrading outlying areas, and killing the job markets by flooding reasonably good paying areas with low wage and lazy workforces. Right now we got a situation where there is a "Black Flight" from Detroit, the current Census tells us this, and in fact, the crime rate has been dropping in Detroit due to the flight, while suburban crime is on the rise.

Right now key areas are experiencing large increases in crime due to inner city flight out to specific areas.. Southfield, Madison Heights, Troy, Oak Park are good examples, areas that were reasonably safe 10 years ago, are experiencing a large surge in crime statistics that tracks perfectly with the increase in African-American residents.

Moving out of the city of Detroit doesn't magically make these people "Better" Citizens unfortunately. Royal Oak had 1 murder this year so far, and it was a african american families teenage son that recently moved here - from Detroit, that killed a neighbor kid over a pair of tennis shoes.

[superstition]

It is not black people committing crimes. It is people who have decided to solve their problems with violence and selfishness. Statistically, yes, more criminals come from impoverished circumstances. And also statistically, there are more minorities in poverty in this country than whites. When it was only a matter of a few decades ago that segregation was 100% socially acceptable (amongst the ruling white class, naturally), it shouldn't be too hard to see why this is the case.

It does beg the question, with all of your education and experience, why you see fit to blame the problems on a person's color rather than the circumstances that led to these events. Call yourself what you are--a racist--and be done with this ridiculous charade. I'm sorry I've wasted the time.