[spedteach]

I have been a special education in MI for 13 years. I do not know why MI is one of the highest paying states in the nation. Could it be because of all of auto factories in the area paying high taxes in the past? My brother worked for one of the big three and made more money than I did for many years. He did not have a college education or special training. He just got the job right out of high school. I had to go to school for almost five years and my starting pay in 1990 as $19,100. Once I got my Master's degree, I did get a raise. I will admit that I do make a good income today. HOWEVER, I would like to challenge anyone who thinks that teachers make too much money to spend a day in the classroom and really see what it is like. Let me give you some real facts.

1. Teachers do spend their own money to buy supplies necessary for the classroom.
2. We buy food for our students because parents send them to school with no snacks and they are hungry.
3. We are not appreciated by many people (including many on this list) for the work that we do.
4. Most teachers that I know, do not sign in at the last minute and leave as soon as possible. For the ones that do (because of family at home etc.), take home work to do at home.
5. There is no job security. I have been moved to three different schools in the last three years and I will probably be moved again next year. Admin. can move us at a whim and do.
6. I have been assaulted by my students several times and called names as well.
7. School districts are always trying to save a buck and most do not care about what is best for the students. The teachers do, and go out of their way to make things better for our students.
8. Students today are much less respectful then when I started 18 years ago. I really saw that when I returned to teaching after taking off several years to raise a family.

So if it is so bad, why do I do it? Because I love to teach your children. I love to see their faces light up when the "light bulb" goes off and they finally get a concept that they have been working on. I love my students and want them to succeed.

Please before you bash a teacher again, go visit a classroom.

[mazenblue]

Originally Posted by spedteach

I have been a special education in MI for 13 years. I do not know why MI is one of the highest paying states in the nation. Could it be because of all of auto factories in the area paying high taxes in the past? My brother worked for one of the big three and made more money than I did for many years. He did not have a college education or special training. He just got the job right out of high school. I had to go to school for almost five years and my starting pay in 1990 as $19,100. Once I got my Master's degree, I did get a raise. I will admit that I do make a good income today. HOWEVER, I would like to challenge anyone who thinks that teachers make too much money to spend a day in the classroom and really see what it is like. Let me give you some real facts.

1. Teachers do spend their own money to buy supplies necessary for the classroom.
2. We buy food for our students because parents send them to school with no snacks and they are hungry.
3. We are not appreciated by many people (including many on this list) for the work that we do.
4. Most teachers that I know, do not sign in at the last minute and leave as soon as possible. For the ones that do (because of family at home etc.), take home work to do at home.
5. There is no job security. I have been moved to three different schools in the last three years and I will probably be moved again next year. Admin. can move us at a whim and do.
6. I have been assaulted by my students several times and called names as well.
7. School districts are always trying to save a buck and most do not care about what is best for the students. The teachers do, and go out of their way to make things better for our students.
8. Students today are much less respectful then when I started 18 years ago. I really saw that when I returned to teaching after taking off several years to raise a family.

So if it is so bad, why do I do it? Because I love to teach your children. I love to see their faces light up when the "light bulb" goes off and they finally get a concept that they have been working on. I love my students and want them to succeed.

Please before you bash a teacher again, go visit a classroom.

Well said! My daughter is currently teaching in Florida and would come back to Michigan and teach if she could get a job there! Not just for the pay either. Read some of the posts from other states regarding the status of their education system. Many of the new teachers here are products of Michigan schools, selected over the teachers that graduated here.

[Bhaalspawn]

Originally Posted by suydam

Just to play devil's advocate with a rhetorical question: If teachers are unfairly paid, why don't all of you who complain about what they make, get into education.

Get me a contract with sufficient liquidated damages provisions for the state's reneging on the contract that says I'll be guaranteed to get one of those $56,000/year plus benefits and pension jobs if I obtain an education degree and a state teaching certificate (under the current standards and rules) and I'll probably come-a-running. I would bet that thousands of people, including many with advanced degrees, would jump at that, too.

I'd be happy (and would be well able) to teach any high school science class, English, or history. I just need a guarantee of being able to get one of those $56,000/year plus benefits and pension jobs.

In all seriousness, I think the concern people have is that $56,000/year plus benefits and pension seems like a huge amount of money for someone who only works 10 months per year. It raises the question of whether the state is offering a rate of compensation that is far, far above market and whether it is receiving enough value to justify that rate. Would it be worth it even if the state employed only the nation's top 3% of all teachers? What's the current quality of the teaching workforce? Do they all have majors in the fields they teach and advanced degrees?

[Bhaalspawn]

Originally Posted by 2to4seasons

Jeez, pick on someone your own size. In most places, teachers get paid crap. Education just isn't a priority. How can education NOT be a priority?

Because our nation doesn't have a shortage of people with college degrees nor a shortage of people with advanced degrees. The cream still rises to the top and we're still producing enough college-educated people to fill what knowledge-based jobs the nation has. From an economic standpoint, there really isn't a huge problem. (Contrary to popular belief, your waitress doesn't need to have an understanding of linear algebra, janitors don't need to know about quantum mechanics, and truck drivers don't need to be knowledgeable about Shakespeare.)

One of the best ways to improve education is to make it a decent paying job so that you can attract good teachers.

Do you really think that a good teacher can make an appreciable difference? Smart kids are going to be smart and dumb kids are going to be dumb and it's difficult to improve a student's G-factor (general intelligence factor or IQ). Also, the apple doesn't always fall far from the tree and many children suffer from non-ideal family situations. How is a teacher going to be able to overcome a child's being raised by parents who have IQs in the low 80's? Is it possible that throwing more and more money at the problem , at least in the form of teacher compensation, may not be the solution?

There are a lot of BAD teachers out there, that's for sure.

You really think so? What do you think makes them bad and how could their performance improve?

Investing in kids is a GOOD investment for all of us.

To what extent does that hold true? I agree that it's true as a broad general principle, but I fear that many people accept that notion as a dogmatic absolute and then want to take it to extremes.

Why are doctors our most valued profession? Because they go to school a long time and we think they're "smart?"

When a teacher makes a mistake, students learn that the Magna Carta was signed in 1776 and they can correct their mistaken knowledge later. However, when a doctor makes a mistake, someone can die or suffer irreversible physical damage.

[Bhaalspawn]

Originally Posted by Br1234

The only insurance a teacher needs is to cover their lawyer after they get busted for statutory raping one of their students. Oh wait, no worry, the union will provide the lawyer.

What gets me is when we hear these stories about female teachers who have "raped" male high schoolers. Did the guys feel victimized or did they feel like studs? Perhaps they were at risk of suffering damage from having consequent hyperinflated egos as a result of their "victimization"? I hear these stories and I ask myself, where the hell were these women when I was in high school?

[Bhaalspawn]

Originally Posted by scottmi

Being a doctor is not that difficult and I'm sure if everyone in this country knew they'd have the opportunity to PAY for 7+ years of college with the potential to earn NO LESS than $100-150k annually, doctors would be commonplace and supply would far outweigh demand.

Oh, trust me, people are banging down the doors to get into medical school. Undergraduates and even high schoolers are fully aware that while their parents may be unemployed or underemployed, their doctors aren't. The problem is either that the AMA engages in physician birth control and/or that we don't have enough medical schools or residency spots to train everyone who wants to (and has the capacity to) become a doctor.

As a matter of public policy, we do want to pay doctors well and we do want them to have a sense of job security. Do you want your doctor to have to worry about whether he's going to get laid off or canned next week? People have to worry about this sort of thing in other professions such as law and business, and these pressures can result in unethical behavior, which is something we don't want in the medical field.

I do think that we should produce more doctors to meet the demand, but at the same time, it probably isn't in the nation's interest to have an oversupply.

[Bhaalspawn]

Originally Posted by scottmi

And yes, I still hold firm to the belief that if everyone in this country HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO 100% PURSUE ANY DEGREE THEY WANTED W/O FEAR OF RUNNING OUT OF TUITION $$$ (even if it means govt. loans), tons and tons of people would aim for those lawyer/doctor jobs.

It's just many people (especially when they're 17/18) don't want to commit to a 7+ year degree they might not finish due to financial reasons.

With regards to becoming a physician, I doubt that living expenses and the costs of tuition deter people from going to medical school. In fact, folks are already breaking down the doors to get in. However, most aren't accepted to the artificially low number of slots in the medical schools.

As for becoming a lawyer (or MBA), tens of thousands of people graduate from law school (and business school) every year and a great many lawyers (and MBAs) earn little money or end up working involuntarily-out-of-field or find better money out-of-field. Right now our nation is producing far, far more lawyers (and MBAs) than it needs.

As a public policy matter, anyone with half-a-brain can go to law school and the lower classes can afford access to a lawyer (or at least they can find lawyers as inexpensively as what could ever be possible) and we have lots of impoverished law school grads struggling to pay off their mammoth student loans, either hoping to work as lawyers some day or seeking jobs in other fields (while they have to put up with lawyer jokes and folks assuming that they are huge failures since they're not rich).

I just wanted to put the lawyer and MBA myth to bed since you raised it in this thread. The most successful lawyers and MBAs do earn lots of money, but the majority, the less visible ones, aren't doing as well. Did I mention that many of those lawyers who are working in large and medium-sized firms are working their tails off, putting in 70 hour weeks of grueling intellectual labor? (Even partners can end up working long hours...gotta either make rain (find) or mind and grind out the work product.) Those guys are earning their $100,000/year incomes. (Imagine writing essays and having to engage your critical thinking and reasoning skills for 70 hours per week in a high stress, high workload, competitive environment.) Also, anytime the issue of income comes up, it should be pointed out that an increasingly high income delivers decreasing returns because of progressive taxation. That is to say, a guy who earns $100,000/year might only bring home $60,000 of it (then he has to pay off his student loans).

[HighlandsGal]

Originally Posted by Bhaalspawn

Get me a contract with sufficient liquidated damages provisions for the state's reneging on the contract that says I'll be guaranteed to get one of those $56,000/year plus benefits and pension jobs if I obtain an education degree and a state teaching certificate (under the current standards and rules) and I'll probably come-a-running. I would bet that thousands of people, including many with advanced degrees, would jump at that, too.

I'd be happy (and would be well able) to teach any high school science class, English, or history. I just need a guarantee of being able to get one of those $56,000/year plus benefits and pension jobs.

In all seriousness, I think the concern people have is that $56,000/year plus benefits and pension seems like a huge amount of money for someone who only works 10 months per year. It raises the question of whether the state is offering a rate of compensation that is far, far above market and whether it is receiving enough value to justify that rate. Would it be worth it even if the state employed only the nation's top 3% of all teachers? What's the current quality of the teaching workforce? Do they all have majors in the fields they teach and advanced degrees?

Where is this $56,000/year coming from? For a first year teacher?? YEAH RIGHT! I am in my 5th year, and at my old school (in Michigan) I would be making a whopping $38,500

[Bhaalspawn]

Yeah, I figured that the $56,000/year that was mentioned in one of the earlier posts in this thread was too good to be true, too. That's why I wanted to respond to the claim that teaching is an awful job as evidenced by a shortage of people willing to do the job for $56,000. Just guarantee me the job for $56,000/year and then I might be willing to invest the time and money needed to enter the field and fill the job, but it has to be guaranteed because gambling sucks and the stakes (opportunity cost, living costs, and tuition dollars) are high.

[spedteach]

Originally Posted by Bhaalspawn

Get me a contract with sufficient liquidated damages provisions for the state's reneging on the contract that says I'll be guaranteed to get one of those $56,000/year plus benefits and pension jobs if I obtain an education degree and a state teaching certificate (under the current standards and rules) and I'll probably come-a-running. I would bet that thousands of people, including many with advanced degrees, would jump at that, too.

I'd be happy (and would be well able) to teach any high school science class, English, or history. I just need a guarantee of being able to get one of those $56,000/year plus benefits and pension jobs.

In all seriousness, I think the concern people have is that $56,000/year plus benefits and pension seems like a huge amount of money for someone who only works 10 months per year. It raises the question of whether the state is offering a rate of compensation that is far, far above market and whether it is receiving enough value to justify that rate. Would it be worth it even if the state employed only the nation's top 3% of all teachers? What's the current quality of the teaching workforce? Do they all have majors in the fields they teach and advanced degrees?

With the new laws of "No Child Left Behind" all teachers in all states MUST be highly qualified which means that they have majors in the areas that they teach.

I wish people would find out the facts before making assumptions on the rules of being a teacher.

Also, many teachers do not make over $50,000 a year. Those that do have been teaching for many years and have a Master's degree.