[djmilf]

wanderer74, do you really want to start comparing the teaching profession to the nursing profession? Check out their 12 hour shifts and their strange work schedules. Sit in an Emergency Room on a Friday night from 6:00 PM to 6:00 AM and compare what happens there to your time in the class room.

Regarding $80K salaries, The median total compensation, including all benefits, for the Detroit Public Schools teachers is $70,046; the median total compensation for teachers in the tri-county area (Wayne, Oakland, and Macomb counties) is $76,100. Detroit Public Schools - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now if the starting salary is about $34K and the median is about $70K, don't you think that there might be some teachers making in excess of $80K?

[wanderer74]

Originally Posted by djmilf

wanderer74, do you really want to start comparing the teaching profession to the nursing profession? Check out their 12 hour shifts and their strange work schedules. Sit in an Emergency Room on a Friday night from 6:00 PM to 6:00 AM and compare what happens there to your time in the class room.

Regarding $80K salaries, The median total compensation, including all benefits, for the Detroit Public Schools teachers is $70,046; the median total compensation for teachers in the tri-county area (Wayne, Oakland, and Macomb counties) is $76,100. Detroit Public Schools - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now if the starting salary is about $34K and the median is about $70K, don't you think that there might be some teachers making in excess of $80K?

Any better source than Wiki? When I was in college at least my profs would not allow Wiki as a source in reference papers since its not verifiable. Their quote of the salaries wasn't linked to a source either. Also, it says median total compensation including benefits - how many jobs include benefits in their salary information? Almost none. Since I've heard many times that benefit packages are usually roughly equal to salary, that would mean every person whose salary is listed as $35K is really making $70K. Which may be technically true, but nobody really talks about salaries that way.

My uncle that I mentioned in my other post worked for Detroit Public Schools in fact so I KNOW their salaries aren't that high unless you start adding in the cost of health insurance and pensions etc which again is kind of misleading. My point was not that teachers are poorly paid, but I really don't believe most go into the field for the money.

[Ivorytickler]

Originally Posted by djmilf

wanderer74, do you really want to start comparing the teaching profession to the nursing profession? Check out their 12 hour shifts and their strange work schedules. Sit in an Emergency Room on a Friday night from 6:00 PM to 6:00 AM and compare what happens there to your time in the class room.

Regarding $80K salaries, The median total compensation, including all benefits, for the Detroit Public Schools teachers is $70,046; the median total compensation for teachers in the tri-county area (Wayne, Oakland, and Macomb counties) is $76,100. Detroit Public Schools - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now if the starting salary is about $34K and the median is about $70K, don't you think that there might be some teachers making in excess of $80K?

There most definitely are. I attended the Eastern Michigan teacher job fair and saw the pay scales for several districts. Masters +30 and 15 years experience will net you $85K in my district and mine wasn't one of the ones with a really long line of applicants.

I have a friend whose wife teaches math who claims she tops $100K. I used to think he was joking. Not anymore. There are lots of ways teachers can add to their base salaries. The district I student taught in was paying almost $4K for teachers to teach 3 weeks of summer school. Can't confirm this but someone told me they pay $30/hr for detention duty for teachers. There's coaching, and class advising and all kinds of things teachers do after school that are paid because union rules say they have to be to pad those salaries. Yup, I believe my friend's wife makes $100K. He kept telling me how teachers made good money and I kept laughing thinking he was joking. He wasn't joking.

When I planned this job change, I had no idea I could earn as much as a teacher as I was as an engineer before. AND get the summers off to boot. Not bad if you can get it.

Unfortunately, I don't think any of us just starting out will see that. I think they'll rein in those wages. While they can't cut the pay of tenured teachers, they can, and will invent a new scale for new teachers. Probably a lot closer to what I was expecting when I made this job change . That's me, always joining the party too late.

At least I didn't get in it for the money so it won't be so bad when I can't make what teachers today make in 10 years.

[HighlandsGal]

Wow.......all these salaries seem way off.....I had B.S. + 30 and 5 years experience teaching in a suburban GR high school and made $38,000. My Master's completed this summer will grant me an extra 3 grand. Big whoop -- I can use it towards my loans

[djmilf]

Originally Posted by wanderer74

Any better source than Wiki? When I was in college at least my profs would not allow Wiki as a source in reference papers since its not verifiable. Their quote of the salaries wasn't linked to a source either.

Fair enough, Wikipedia is only as good as its referenced sources. I tried to look up the corresponding articles on Freep.com and DetNews.com site, but they're not on-line anymore.

I'll just note in passing that your first quoted source (indirectly from the National Education Assocation, btw) does give $34K as the starting salary for Michigan teachers, but also gives the average salary for Michigan Teachers as $57K. If the starting is $34K and the average is $57K (a difference of $23K, isn't it at least possible that the top salaries might be over $70K (assuming a perfect bell curve, $57K + $23K = $80K)?

I did find an article online from the New York Times regarding the 2006 strike by the Detroit Federation of Teachers.

"The union, which represents about 9,500 teachers and social workers, is seeking a contract that would raise the current $70,000 salary for top-level teachers by 16 percent over three years."
Detroit Teachers Vote Not to Report to Work - New York Times

I also found this quote from 1999, again from the New York Times, regarding union negotiations for a pay raise:

"The union had asked that wages for Detroit's teachers be brought up to the median of those in the three-county metropolitan area."
On Eve of New School Year, Detroit Teachers Vote to Strike - New York Times

So in 2006, the Detroit Federation of Teachers has stated that the top salary is $70K (not total benefits) and back in 1999 the same union stated that their median wages (again, not including benefits) are less than those for the three-county metropolitan area.

Originally Posted by wanderer74

Also, it says median total compensation including benefits - how many jobs include benefits in their salary information? Almost none. Since I've heard many times that benefit packages are usually roughly equal to salary, that would mean every person whose salary is listed as $35K is really making $70K. Which may be technically true, but nobody really talks about salaries that way.

Um, back up the turnip truck for a second. I have to justify my quotes because your "profs would not allow Wiki as a source in reference papers since its not verifiable" but you just pull a statement like "benefits are usually roughly equal to salary" out of thin air?

Let me assure you, I receive both a salary and benefits from my place of employment. Every day I work for clients both external and internal to my company. Every day I have to bill each hour of my time to these clients. I also have to provide hourly estimates and dollar quotes on proposals for clients. Because of this I know exactly how much I cost my company because internal companies get my work for cost. This figure not only includes my salary and benefits, but also the employer's side of Federal Withholding Taxes (FICA and Medicare), the "rent" for using my office space, my office, phone, and my computer equipment, including software licences fees (and I use a lot of software in my job). Trust me, these "total benefits" (including my office chair) are no more than 25% of my salary.

And my benefits aren't comparable to those given to teachers in Michigan. I get a health plan...while I'm employed. My health plan is basic, with co-pays and deductibles, and direct payroll contributions. I've got a cap on total health benefits that I can claim while I work for my company: one million dollars. Used to be six million, but the company has been whittling it down the past 8 years.

I don't get health care when I retire. Unless you count Medicare.

Teachers get a health plan comparable to UAW health plans, which they get to keep after they retire from teaching.

I do get a 401k plan -- but I've got to contribute to it out of my own pocket. There is employer matching, but's it's only 15%, up to a limit of $1800 per year.

Teachers get a guaranteed pension when they retire -- at no cost to themselves.

Originally Posted by wanderer74

My uncle that I mentioned in my other post worked for Detroit Public Schools in fact so I KNOW their salaries aren't that high unless you start adding in the cost of health insurance and pensions etc which again is kind of misleading. My point was not that teachers are poorly paid, but I really don't believe most go into the field for the money.

I'm assuming that you're referring to your statement "I can't find any sources that say teachers with masters degrees make $80K" when you talke about how your uncle said that no one made that much.

The Detroit Federation of Teachers says that some do make $70K in salary. The DFT also says that median salary for Detroit Public school teachers is less than the median salary for teachers in the tri-county area. The National Education Association's numbers imply that some Detroit teachers do make $70K in salary.

I think that the thing that really got up my nose was when you whined about how nurses have "higher salaries for fewer years of schooling on average" than teachers. Do you really think that the two careers are comparable?

Tell me some more horror stories about how your uncle "lasted 3-4 years teaching in an inner-city school before realizing that he wasn't able to inspire anyone or make a difference because none of the students nor their parents seemed to care".

And I'll tell you some horror stories about my sister who worked in the ER and said that "they got crispy critters about three nights a week".

[JessicaGM08]

I have worked in an ER... a lot of the things that come in are just problems from people who, unfortunately, have to go to fast track instead of the actual doctor's office during the day because of insurance reasons- right? Some of these problems include cough, sore throat, swollen ankle, etc. Some problems, of course, are much, much worse and deadly. I have seen both firsthand.
My dad was medical director, my stepmom and stepsister are nurses in the ER, and I worked in registration and did mostly paperwork in the ER before deciding to go into teaching. I am not a nurse.
Yes, nursing hours are long... if you choose to take that shift Usually, at least what I have seen, nursing jobs are very flexible. A lot of people want to go into nursing because of that, but few make it- sounds kind of like teaching (except for the hours)
Now, teachers have a choice too! When I was student teaching, I came in at or before 7 am and didn't leave until around 5:30. Sometimes I would leave earlier and just continue work at home some teachers come in a half hour before the students do and leave as soon as they are allowed.
Bottom line, nurses and teachers both see a lot of terrible things (yes, teachers see terrible things medically and emotionally too) and have to deal with them on the "front line." Let's not compare... we're all trying to help people- I hope. This money discussion seems ridiculous. No one's opinion is going to change, they are just going to continue to look at Wikipedia or another website for more stats to back up their own opinion.
Are any of you guys lawyers? I hear it pays well....

[mofromcheboygankalamazoo]

Originally Posted by JessicaGM08

I have worked in an ER... a lot of the things that come in are just problems from people who, unfortunately, have to go to fast track instead of the actual doctor's office during the day because of insurance reasons- right? Some of these problems include cough, sore throat, swollen ankle, etc. Some problems, of course, are much, much worse and deadly. I have seen both firsthand.
My dad was medical director, my stepmom and stepsister are nurses in the ER, and I worked in registration and did mostly paperwork in the ER before deciding to go into teaching. I am not a nurse.
Yes, nursing hours are long... if you choose to take that shift Usually, at least what I have seen, nursing jobs are very flexible. A lot of people want to go into nursing because of that, but few make it- sounds kind of like teaching (except for the hours)
Now, teachers have a choice too! When I was student teaching, I came in at or before 7 am and didn't leave until around 5:30. Sometimes I would leave earlier and just continue work at home some teachers come in a half hour before the students do and leave as soon as they are allowed.
Bottom line, nurses and teachers both see a lot of terrible things (yes, teachers see terrible things medically and emotionally too) and have to deal with them on the "front line." Let's not compare... we're all trying to help people- I hope. This money discussion seems ridiculous. No one's opinion is going to change, they are just going to continue to look at Wikipedia or another website for more stats to back up their own opinion.
Are any of you guys lawyers? I hear it pays well....

thank you!! very good post!
i have many friends who are nurses and yes we both see a lot of bad stuff-students who are neglected or abused...etc.
very good post!

[JimmyInGreatLakes]

Originally Posted by wanderer74

Let's face it - average starting salary for a public school teacher with a minimum of a bachelors degree (often having to get a masters as well) in MI is $34,377 according to this site. (Gee and I thought people on this forum were saying the avg MI teacher made over $100K a year, but somehow that site says considerably different!...imagine that!) - the average entry-level nurse makes around $40K a year according to this site - and says that nurses with masters degrees can make $80K. I can't find any sources that say teachers with masters degrees make $80K. So it would seem that if someone were choosing a field specifically because they were motivated by money, they'd go for nursing, which has higher salaries for fewer years of schooling on average and far more job openings even right here in MI.

I've known literally dozens of people who have gone into the field and never knew a single one who was motivated by the money, probably because as I said, the widespread myth/belief is out there that teachers are really poorly paid.

First point: You point address the average STARTING salary of $34K. That's year one not every year so the other folks aren't that far off. I'll take the NEA stats for Michigan that say $57K.

Second point: Nurses and the fact that there are "far more job openings". There is not a perfect correlation between salary and # of job openings but there IS a correlation. Michigan and everywhere else needs more nurses but Michigan does not need more teachers. If we didn't pay teachers well (including the total benefits package), there wouldn't be a glut of job seekers in Michigan in that field. How can that be disputed?

If you've known "dozens" in teaching and none motivated by money, I doubt you drilled down very deep with them or they simply weren't honest. Call me cynical but most people are not that benevolent. Also, I don't know where you get your myths but one of them in Michigan is not that teachers are poorly paid.

[JessicaGM08]

Originally Posted by JimmyInGreatLakes

First point: You point address the average STARTING salary of $34K. That's year one not every year so the other folks aren't that far off. I'll take the NEA stats for Michigan that say $57K.

Second point: Nurses and the fact that there are "far more job openings". There is not a perfect correlation between salary and # of job openings but there IS a correlation. Michigan and everywhere else needs more nurses but Michigan does not need more teachers. If we didn't pay teachers well (including the total benefits package), there wouldn't be a glut of job seekers in Michigan in that field. How can that be disputed?

If you've known "dozens" in teaching and none motivated by money, I doubt you drilled down very deep with them or they simply weren't honest. Call me cynical but most people are not that benevolent. Also, I don't know where you get your myths but one of them in Michigan is not that teachers are poorly paid.

Most people do think about what the salary is-- in ANY field. Even peace corp. people ask what their stipend will be.
I will tell you that in a stellar district in Maryland, I will be starting at 39K with a BA. In Michigan, it is less. It also highly depends on the district...
Not much less in MI- so I really don't think ALL teachers are complaining.
Other citizens, however, as we have seen on this thread seem to be overly concerned with teacher salaries Enough already! The very first post wasn't even controversial! Isn't this city-data.com not a complain and argue fest? This is my very last post on this thread since I don't want to be hypocritical and continue to argue

Have a great day!

Jess

[wanderer74]

Originally Posted by djmilf

Fair enough, Wikipedia is only as good as its referenced sources. I tried to look up the corresponding articles on Freep.com and DetNews.com site, but they're not on-line anymore.

I'll just note in passing that your first quoted source (indirectly from the National Education Assocation, btw) does give $34K as the starting salary for Michigan teachers, but also gives the average salary for Michigan Teachers as $57K. If the starting is $34K and the average is $57K (a difference of $23K, isn't it at least possible that the top salaries might be over $70K (assuming a perfect bell curve, $57K + $23K = $80K)?

I'll grant you that top salaries might be over $70K. However, $70K is NOT the same as the $100K that was discussed in this thread either. And I don't believe that the *average* teacher is earning $70K, nor do I think MI is unique in teacher pay. I have a friend who teaches high school in TX - supposedly one of the lower-paying states for teachers - and she's making $60K with 5 years experience and a masters degree. My real point isn't that MI teachers have it so bad or that they're not paid enough; my point is that its damn hard to get a teaching job here period and I don't think teachers here are paid excessively well compared to other states.

I'm sorry my post was perceived as "whining". That wasn't my point at all. And no, my uncle wasn't my source that teachers with masters degrees make less than nurses - though my sources were anecdotal and therefore not the most verifiable. Honestly it just seems like the existence of this whole thread was to say that MI teachers earn more than they're worth and its attracting people to this state looking for jobs, which just ticked me off. The reason MI has such a glut of teachers is most likely NOT because the state pays so highly but because schools here are closing due to the lower tax base caused by a declining and aging population that doesn't want to/can't afford to vote for school millages.

Um, back up the turnip truck for a second. I have to justify my quotes because your "profs would not allow Wiki as a source in reference papers since its not verifiable" but you just pull a statement like "benefits are usually roughly equal to salary" out of thin air?

Fair enough. I have always heard (mainly from people in my parents' generation) that the low wages in MI are better than they seem if you get benefits because you can figure that the benefit package effectively doubles your salary. Then again, the people I hear that from are largely those who have benefitted from the outmoded gravy train of unions. Union-type benefit packages might indeed be equal in value to salary - and the union salaries are high in the first place - but most jobs don't have benefit packages like the unions do.

I think that the thing that really got up my nose was when you whined about how nurses have "higher salaries for fewer years of schooling on average" than teachers. Do you really think that the two careers are comparable?

Tell me some more horror stories about how your uncle "lasted 3-4 years teaching in an inner-city school before realizing that he wasn't able to inspire anyone or make a difference because none of the students nor their parents seemed to care".

No, I don't think teaching and nursing are comparable careers. Nor was I telling "horror stories" about my uncle just because I said he didn't think teaching in an inner city school offered the satisfaction he expected when he chose the field. I think that a lot of people go into teaching because they have this very romanticized, Hollywood-like image of being the teacher who changes a child's life (think Dead Poets Society, Freedom Writers, Mr. Holland's Opus...) when the reality isn't like that. But I do think that in general getting a nursing job is easier than getting a teaching job (based on number of available jobs) and pays very well compared to the amount of required education, so I would think that if people were going into a career solely due to the amount of money it pays, nursing would make a lot more sense and in fact I *have* known many who have gone into the medical field because of the high wages and high availability of jobs. I have many people in my family who are nurses or otherwise work in the medical field and it doesn't look like an easy job. But neither is teaching. (And I may point out that I am not pursuing careers in *either* field because I have no desire to do so, no matter what they pay!) It just really bothers me when people talk badly about teachers as though they're overpaid for what they do and they're all in it for the money, when that really isn't true based on the people I know.