[Ivorytickler]

Originally Posted by HighlandsGal

Wow.......all these salaries seem way off.....I had B.S. + 30 and 5 years experience teaching in a suburban GR high school and made $38,000. My Master's completed this summer will grant me an extra 3 grand. Big whoop -- I can use it towards my loans

No one is claiming teachers start out high but salaries are up there for masters +30 and 15 years experience.

I'm going to predict that anyone starting in teaching today will never see those salaries. I think the older teachers will get grandfathered in but new teachers will see salary caps. It's not an issue of what teachers are worth but rather what the market will bear. Salaries are falling in other professions so teching salaries are now high by comparison.

7 years ago, I could have gotten $90 K as an engineer. Today, I"d be lucky to get a job offer at $65K and they're hard to come by but a teacher with the same education and experience I have is still making $85K in my district. I predict buy outs followed by hiring of new teachers who will never see teaching wages the likes of what teahers enjoy today.

[CraveCase]

As far as whether I think teachers make enough/too little money, I am a new teacher. Frankly I chose my field and so did most of the other people on here complaining. My boyfriend is in IT and during his first year of work he will make almost 3 times what I will, I don't complain about it because that is the field he chose, I would never want to do what he is doing everyday. When I chose teaching I knew what I was getting into, I researched my major. So for the nurses with the crazy schedules and 12 hour shifts - you chose the field, for teachers - you chose the field, for IT persons - again you chose. If you are so envious or jealous of what everyone else is doing spend a day in their shoes - go back to school, change your job, etc. And know I am not one-sided and sticking up for teachers...I think there are many teachers who complain a lot, its all about time management and prioritizing your life, and again every teacher chose their field, spent 5 years + in school, if you don't like it find something you do. Life isn't all about money - you will hate your day if you don't enjoy your job at least a little bit.

However, in regards to being a teacher Michigan is a great state for teacher pay and benefits, too bad we can't get jobs! Michigan also has some of the best teaching colleges in the nation and produce far to many teacher a year than are needed for employment. I graduated in December , and even with my mom working in a school and having an "IN" in many schools for me it doesn't help these days. Teachers with 7 or less years of experience got pink slipped this year at the school she works at. I wish I could stay in Michigan to teach but I am leaving for North Carolina in a couple of weeks. I am not partial to Michigan as a state, but I am in terms of pay and benefits, North Carolina isn't even close to comparing - but a job is a job right? I move somewhere that I can work and live or I sit here and sub randomly doing odd end jobs with no benefits offered at all. Out of the 16 teachers that I personally knew whom graduated with me, 14 of us are leaving the state this fall. It is terrible but you have to do something, you spent 5 years in college to get this degree and you can't even use it. I mean when a teaching position opens and they have 1200 applicants - how do you stand out in a group that big, and I am a Chemistry major, the field where they told me I would be 'safe' because it is one of the most needed areas, apparently not in Michigan! Good Luck to teachers and recent graduates in the state!

[rstravis]

Salary schmalary. Teaching pays OK once you get going.

However, while people going into education typically are aware of salary norms, it is generally not a motivating factor. Hopefully the same could be said of many professions, including the aforementioned nursing, etc. There are MANY jobs that can pay much better, especially when starting. I could have made more money had I chosen to stay in sales. But I wouldn't be as satisfied with life.

Teaching is a labor of love -- a calling, even. And yes, some teachers complain about their salaries too much (I think it's just a leftover habit from the 80s, when salaries were much more pathetic). But most of us realize that we have it alright -- especially in the current economy.

Btw, to the user who was talking about benefits: my salary this past year was about 35k, and the value of benefits on top of that took the total to 43k. Far from doubling it, that's only a 23% increase. Still very good, mind you, and I'm not complaining a bit. But the "doubling" rule is outdated, if it ever was accurate.

[SweetReason]

Originally Posted by Bhaalspawn

Because our nation doesn't have a shortage of people with college degrees nor a shortage of people with advanced degrees. The cream still rises to the top and we're still producing enough college-educated people to fill what knowledge-based jobs the nation has. From an economic standpoint, there really isn't a huge problem. (Contrary to popular belief, your waitress doesn't need to have an understanding of linear algebra, janitors don't need to know about quantum mechanics, and truck drivers don't need to be knowledgeable about Shakespeare.)



Do you really think that a good teacher can make an appreciable difference? Smart kids are going to be smart and dumb kids are going to be dumb and it's difficult to improve a student's G-factor (general intelligence factor or IQ). Also, the apple doesn't always fall far from the tree and many children suffer from non-ideal family situations. How is a teacher going to be able to overcome a child's being raised by parents who have IQs in the low 80's? Is it possible that throwing more and more money at the problem , at least in the form of teacher compensation, may not be the solution?



You really think so? What do you think makes them bad and how could their performance improve?



To what extent does that hold true? I agree that it's true as a broad general principle, but I fear that many people accept that notion as a dogmatic absolute and then want to take it to extremes.



When a teacher makes a mistake, students learn that the Magna Carta was signed in 1776 and they can correct their mistaken knowledge later. However, when a doctor makes a mistake, someone can die or suffer irreversible physical damage.

You're an ignorant brainiac. You have proven one thing: knowledge doesn't provide common sense. Any joe shmoe with a will to learn can obtain knowledge. Our local public libraries offer it.. our convenient world wide web is teeming with it.. but not everyone experiences the privilege of being taught. To be taught requires nurturing, patience, prudence, courage, and resilience (to point out a few), on behalf of the teacher, in order to transfer those qualities into the student. (Obviously you lacked a few good teachers in your day.) You're all smarts .. without wisdom. Knowledge .. without perception. That's why teachers are imperative to the general operation of our country. They literally incubate our future. When done properly they not only transfer knowledge into the student.. but perception and concept.. along with the desire to dream and pursue one's dream.

And as for your statistics on people in our nation with college/advanced degrees: my advice to you would be to go visit an under-privileged part of town. Go take a long stroll down an impoverished city street. There are many people lacking college education for many reasons, a more prominent reason being financial deprivation. Their family history and circumstances may have led them to believe a college degree isn't available to them. But good teachers can sculpt an impoverished community into one of hope and achievement when they are willing to dedicate themselves to the future (s) of another/community. Knowledge can't provide faith.. Mr. Brainiac. Knowledge can stimulate a dream.. but faith carries it out. By the way, many of our college campuses today are filled with young adults attaining or pursuing college/advanced degrees.. and many of our campuses are teeming with substance abuse, promiscuity, and a general lack of quality living. So where exactly is the cream of the crop? I suppose you consider yourself to be such a cliche. I believe the "cream of the crop" would be those who rise above adversity with a hopeful disposition.. and have enough wisdom.. to bring a crowd with them. Another characteristic that can easily be found in a Good Teacher.

[sarafinajones]

I am a teacher. I taught as a classroom teacher in an urban school before I finished my degree and earned about $34,000. I have now finished my degree and earn $23,000 in my permanant teaching position. It is so frustration to not be able to find a position that pays more. My husband and I are both teachers and are struggling to pay the bills(we have 3 children). He makes about $5,000 more than me and has been teaching for 7 years. Five years of college, loans to pay, more classes to take as required.... tough to be a teacher. And about those days off in the summer, we need them in order to plan lessons, take classes and remain patient with the students during the school year. As a parent, don't you give a sigh of relief when school starts again in the fall?

[deslok]

My mother taught for many years. Although not making a whole lot, we never did without, but she also planned her life accordingly. I don't think people that fail to do that, when they realize that teaching does not always pay 6 figures(rare) should not complain. Teaching also has a nice perk of great health insurance, something very few folks have right now.
I think cream does rise to the top eventually, but putting an economic bias on what is considered cream is wrong in either case. A lot of very bright kids do not have anything to overcome in their family lives, this does not make them elitist, or make them any less hard of a worker. Real "cream" people are probably out being more productive then any of us at this current time.

[Ivorytickler]

Originally Posted by Siberia

Become a Teacher in Michigan - MI -- Teacher Education | Certification | Credentials | Training

Tax payers and politicians have decided to support Michigan's teachers and administrators. At $56,973 for 2005*, Michigan is ranked 4th in the nation for average teacher salary.

------------------------

Moving up quickly, as in 2003-2004 Michigan teachers where only 5th highest paid:

http://www.aft.org/salary/2004/downl...ySurvey-MI.pdf


Hey maybe with this new historic tax increase, teachers in Michigan will be paid the highest in the nation!!! That will match the numerous other first ranking positios of Michigan, like first in unemployement, first in lowest economy growth, first in foreclosure, and so on...

Just remember, "it is for the children"...

Ignorance must be bliss...

Not true for all of us. There is such a glut of teachers in Michigan that many of us can only find work in low paying charter schools.

[zthatzmanz28]

WOW///600 plus teachers laid off from Detroit Public Schools.

Possibility that all or most teachers in Pontiac Public Schools will be as well.

Few if any public schools are hiring..positions created via retirement are being eliminated at most public schools.

Special education students are "cured" and signed out of services.

Charter schools, who have NO problems using 90 plus credit college students to fill the void until a "qualified" (usually veteran teacher) succumbs to take the position rather than move out of state and paid substantially LESS.

Then charter schools turn around and "lay off" the teacher once they get 3-4 steps and hire newbies --- again for less?

I am afraid that the teacher's union is being broke and the ones who will truly suffer?

Sure, teaching ain't (grammar police PLEASE!) about the money--but we have bills that need to be paid and when I cannot make enough to live in a decent house in the district where I teach--something is terribly WRONG with the system.

When I cannot afford to drive a newer car (all I want is one less than 10 years old), pay my student loans, put food on the table, and go on vacation in the summer instead of teaching summer school to supplement the income---
The system has gone awry...

And another dozen or so good teachers leave Michigan what...every month?

How many teachers have MOVED to Michigan looking or getting a teaching job? Not at charter schools that starts around 32K, few if any benefits and expect if not require 5-10 additional hours a month to sponsor a club, event, or other after hours events for the school??

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm...just my rant as a teacher for 15 years in Michigan who has taught public, charter, residential---urban (Detroit / Pontiac) and rural (Monroe County)

Hopefully someone is keeping count of the teachers coming in to Michigan and those who are or have left in the past 12-24 months...

[Ivorytickler]

Originally Posted by zthatzmanz28

WOW///600 plus teachers laid off from Detroit Public Schools.

Possibility that all or most teachers in Pontiac Public Schools will be as well.

Few if any public schools are hiring..positions created via retirement are being eliminated at most public schools.

Special education students are "cured" and signed out of services.

Charter schools, who have NO problems using 90 plus credit college students to fill the void until a "qualified" (usually veteran teacher) succumbs to take the position rather than move out of state and paid substantially LESS.

Then charter schools turn around and "lay off" the teacher once they get 3-4 steps and hire newbies --- again for less?

I am afraid that the teacher's union is being broke and the ones who will truly suffer?

Sure, teaching ain't (grammar police PLEASE!) about the money--but we have bills that need to be paid and when I cannot make enough to live in a decent house in the district where I teach--something is terribly WRONG with the system.

When I cannot afford to drive a newer car (all I want is one less than 10 years old), pay my student loans, put food on the table, and go on vacation in the summer instead of teaching summer school to supplement the income---
The system has gone awry...

And another dozen or so good teachers leave Michigan what...every month?

How many teachers have MOVED to Michigan looking or getting a teaching job? Not at charter schools that starts around 32K, few if any benefits and expect if not require 5-10 additional hours a month to sponsor a club, event, or other after hours events for the school??

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm...just my rant as a teacher for 15 years in Michigan who has taught public, charter, residential---urban (Detroit / Pontiac) and rural (Monroe County)

Hopefully someone is keeping count of the teachers coming in to Michigan and those who are or have left in the past 12-24 months...

Charter schools don't have steps. You hire in at 70%-80% of what a new teacher makes in a district and then, if you're lucky, get cost of living raises that cover about half of cost of living. I have a masters in teaching and I'm triple certified (math/chemistry/physics) and I make $34,000. I will make the equivalent of that or less forever if I stay in a charter. I'm at the top of the pay scale.

So, charters have no need to replace teachers every few years. It saves them nothing. What happens is they lose teachers as they either move into districts or into more lucrative professions. If I don't make it into a district in the next 5 years, I'll go back to engineering. I can't afford to live off of what I make in a charter. With a glut of teachers in this state, I don't see the wage/benefit issue changing.

Unfortunately, with the strong union here, Michigan is attractive to teachers so we have a glut. Districts can pick from the best and leave the rest and with teachers flocking from other states, they have plenty to pick from. The rest of us are lucky to have jobs at all.

Somehow this is not the situation I'd find myself in when I decided to go into teaching. They kept saying there was a shortage of math/science teachers when there's a glut. I'm only making $34,000, have lousy medical benefits (my part of the bill for my daughter's recent accident is over $2000 so far and the bills keep coming) and, effectively, no retirement package (2.5% in a 401K which won't pay for a decent vacation by the time I retire) but I'm lucky to have what I have. I'd love better but I don't see it happening any time soon.

Even when the economy turns, it will take time for teaching to catch up. Teacher jobs are a tail end indicator. They lag the rest of the economy. Three years ago, while the writing was on the wall for engineers, it was looking like teaching was a good alternative. Now, teaching's just as bad as engineering. Only those with lots of experience or who happen to be in the right place at the right time find work.

The problem isn't union breaking. It's that union wages are so high here. Michigan is attractive for teaching which creates a glut. When there's a glut, wages stay low. We need a teacher shortage to get wages up. If anything, the union is hurting us because union wages attract teachers to the state which keeps the glut going.

I hear you on that car. Mine just turned 100K miles and I can't replace it on what I make. I'll be SOL if it breaks down before I can either find a second job or a decent paying daytime job.

What really irks me is I believe in the charter initiative. My kids go to a charter school. Yet I, simply, can't afford to work for one. There should be natural competition for teachers but it's not happening because union scale attracts so many teachers that there is a glut. One of our biggest exports right now is teachers. We graduate more than we need and then add those who come to the state to find work. As long as we have too many teachers here, it will stay this way.

Send me a PM if you're interested, I know of one charter that pays a lot better than other charters just south of Detroit. They offered me a job but I chose the charter my children attend instead so my kids can stay where they are(what a mother won't do, sigh). I wish I could have both taken that job and kept my kids in their charter but I couldn't because of location and hours (they have a longer school day, which is why they pay more). If you have urban experience, I think they'd be interested.

[zthatzmanz28]

I have always come in on the high end of the salary--usually starting at 40K (still a pay cut since I made that in 1995) as a special education teacher. I work a year or two and wham...they find a new graduate who will work for 29K and I am out the door. I thought my previous position would be my last--53K a year. But was I wrong. Budgets and money have devastated education everywhere in Michigan. I would love to know about the charter south of Detroit. I will PM you. But after 15 years I refuse to work for less than 45K. Greedy? Just another reason the education system is failing, high (45K is high?) paid teachers? I think not. I am just tired of watching CEOs drive companies into the ground (Antenetti with Kmart) (Bob Nardelli formerly HomeDepot) only to find new jobs with a substantial pay increase? And teachers cannot even secure a position with a living wage?