[Yac]

As the discussion heats up, remember to stay calm and respect each other, please
Yac.

[MidniteBreeze]

Originally Posted by JimmyInGreatLakes

Great catch joe! Try 8:50am, 9:50am, and 1:13pm as well. Must be snack breaks too...

Just so everyone knows, thanks to our union, school is not in session in MN yesterday and today due to the MEA convention down in Minneapolis. So no, I usually don't post at such "odd" hours

[MidniteBreeze]

Ok, everyone hates a complainer, so here are some suggestions I have to make the public schools better:

-Yes, make it easier to fire bad teachers. I couldn't agree more.

-Along with the schools, make parents and students more accountable for education. Some examples: REQUIRE parents to show up to parent-teacher meetings, have parenting classes available to help parents with out-of-control children. Suspend driving and/or after school job and/or sports and extracurricular privalges for students who aren't working to the best of their ability.

The larger community can also help! We often hear that parents can't make it to meetings because they can't get out of work. Perhaps if employers were to offer so many paid hours off and/or "flex" hours per year for parents to attend important meetings (much like they have to give employees time off to vote) we could help our parents be more inolved. Employers would benefit in the long run because, after all, those kids in the schools are their future workforce!

-Compensation. I agree that giving teachers raises across the board won't necessarily increase instructional quality or attract better teachers to the profession. But just like anyone else, teachers ARE motivated by money and recognition for a job well done. A good first step would be to allow for some flexibility within the existing salary schedule set-up. For example, allow administrators to give small raises (say even $500-$1000 more per year above their current education/experince "step") to teachers who are doing a good job and going "above and beyond". On the flip side, also allow administrators to "freeze" a teacher's salary for a year if they're not up to par. If the problem continues, fire them! "Adequate" teachers get what's on the salary schedule...no more, no less.

-Testing/grade promotion: Yes, we do need a standardized way to measure our students' progress, but the current NCLB system is highly flawed. For one, there is no incentive for students to do well on these tests. If it doesn't affect their grades in their classes and/or their graduation status, why should they care? I say we tie these tests to grade promotion. If a student isn't learning what they need to learn (adjusing for the needs of special ed students and English language learners, of course), they go back to 7th grade or take summer school classes or do SOMETHING other than be shuffled off to the next grade, unprepared. If this were federally mandated, it would make it MUCH easier for schools to avoid the pressures of "social" promotion.

Secondly, these tests should measure students' progress OVER TIME as opposed to the current system that merely takes a "snapshot". The way it is now, they compare this year's 7th graders to last year's 7th graders, this year's 8th graders to last year's 8th graders and so on. As any teacher will tell you, there can be GREAT variations in ability from class to class. I don't know why this is, but it's ture (the old "something in the water" theory?)

-Be more realistic about what some students are able to learn. A student with an IQ of 70 should NOT be in a "mainstream" algebra class! Don't get me wrong, students with disabilities deserve a high quality education too...but I think we're doing everyone a disservice by expecting that all kids are ready to learn the same things at the same time. Again, we don't expect kids to have the same athletic, musical or artistic ability, yet we expect them to have the same academic ability?

-Finally, we ALL need to get out of this "us/them" mentality and realize we're all supposed to be on the same team here! There's plenty of finger pointing going on, but I don't see a lot of people willing to work together to FIX the problems and focus on what's important....the students.

[Br1234]

Originally Posted by MidniteBreeze

-Yes, make it easier to fire bad teachers. I couldn't agree more.

-Compensation. I agree that giving teachers raises across the board won't necessarily increase instructional quality or attract better teachers to the profession. But just like anyone else, teachers ARE motivated by money and recognition for a job well done. A good first step would be to allow for some flexibility within the existing salary schedule set-up. For example, allow administrators to give small raises (say even $500-$1000 more per year above their current education/experince "step") to teachers who are doing a good job and going "above and beyond". On the flip side, also allow administrators to "freeze" a teacher's salary for a year if they're not up to par. If the problem continues, fire them! "Adequate" teachers get what's on the salary schedule...no more, no less.

First off to Yac, as for the fat teach. ref., I didn't mean to offend fat people, I just wanted to help readers visualize the image that has been burned in my brain.

I agree mostly with your opinion on teacher compenstation. BUT, I would add that your "salary schedule" should match that of private schools. Not some arbitrary amount that the unions can extort.

[HighlandsGal]

Originally Posted by JimmyInGreatLakes

Great catch joe! Try 8:50am, 9:50am, and 1:13pm as well. Must be snack breaks too...

Wrong. Try teaching in a year round school and being on off track

[MidniteBreeze]

Originally Posted by Br1234

First off to Yac, as for the fat teach. ref., I didn't mean to offend fat people, I just wanted to help readers visualize the image that has been burned in my brain.

I agree mostly with your opinion on teacher compenstation. BUT, I would add that your "salary schedule" should match that of private schools. Not some arbitrary amount that the unions can extort.

Which private schools? They're not consistant with salary either. Some make about what the public teachers make, some in very exclusive/wealthy schools make more, some far less. I think a fair salary would be on par with what people with similar levels of education/experience make in a given community (so you take cost of living into consideration), and then adusting for the time off.

So if the average person in my community with an MA and 10 years of experience makes about $60K a year and I put in 3/4 of the time he/she does, then a fair salary would be somewhere in the $45K range. (These are just numbers I pulled out of the air, but I think you understand my point.) If I'm a good teacher, I should make slighly more, If I'm a so-so teacher, then slightly less. If I'm a crappy teacher, boot me out the door.

As I mentioned before, my husband did a brief stint at a Catholic school and while he greatly enjoyed working there due to involved parents and well-behaved kids, he couldn't afford to stay there (low 20K range...and he had 5 years of prior teaching exeprience!) Even considering the time off teachers get, you have to agree that low 20's is a pretty pathetic salary for an experienced person with a college degree who is actually practicing in their field.

You might ask, well why does anyone work there? Most of the teachers my husband worked with were women married to rather wealthy men (a lot of their own kids went to school there) who really didn't even need the "second income." Others were "baby" teachers fresh out of college who saw the job as a place to gain experience and then move on (many still lived with their parents or their old college roomies). Some, of course, were nuns! Most teachers, though, have to pay mortgages and raise families just like everyone else and it's not fair to ask them to work for peanuts. Again, I'm not saying they should be millionaires (as I mentioned before, I am not personally complaining about my current salary), but let's be reasonable here.

[Siberia]

Originally Posted by joedekock

...my wife is a public school teacher currently.... she did not choose education as a career for a big salary. She knew what her entire salary would be for her entire career. I do not know any other field where that is possible. So if you know for a fact that when you graduate college and get a teaching job your going to make $34,000 a year to start, and when you have 30 or more years in at the end of your career that your going to make $70,000 (adjusted for inflation of course), what gives you the right to complain about your salary.

Teaching is not a field you go into because you want to be a millionaire. You go into it because you love educating children and want to be a difference in their life.

It is great to see some happy teachers who actually realize that the grass is not always greener on the other side. I can only hope that enough of you can group together and logically speak to the teachers who are groaning in public concerning their salary...the 4th highest median salary in the nation. The groaning teachers have the public in arms over their taxes at this point...it will soon be much cheaper to send first graders to college versus elementary schools at $8,000 in taxpayer dollars per student!

Some of the issues I wish teachers would address:

1. Schools over-run by high paid administrators (the percentage of non-teaching employees at schools has exploded over the last 20-30 years)

2. Out of control healthcare costs (give up some of the un-sustainable healthcare benefits before you lose it all...this issue troubles the public worse than any other since 90% of the public has already been raked over the financial healthcare hot coals on this subject matter at their own employers demands...everyone else is paying more of their share, why are taxpayer funded teachers exempt from reality???)

3. Out of control students spurred by lack of parenting in a divorce driven world need to be kicked out long term (expel quicker, make bullying a real offense to help stop "postal" kid situations, kick out those not willing to study into a forced work environment at age 16 where they can make money and actually benefit society...stop the every kid is the same madness)


4. Politically driven grading systems that try to remove the red ink from classrooms and passes those who should fail...only ensures that the students won't be prepared for the real world that will inevitably throw cruel consequences towards young adults that won't be prepared with how to deal with such "harshness"...)

5. Raises driven by time on job instead of performance is leading teachers toward mediocrity as the sought after norm, and helping ensure that bad teachers stay while good ones leave for more fulfilling careers and more financially rewarding pastures. (what career path other than politicians and unions, grades the employees on time and tenure anyway?)

6. Dump unnecessary tenure meant to protect college professors writing and teaching controversial subject matter, etc....(and while you are at it, dump the silly little credits you all have to obtain with your own money and start a national internet based system of seminars that address real world school issues and new subject matter...and dump the whole "masters degree = $6,000-$8,000 raise" for high school teachers...instead pay those who teach more difficult classes such as Calc more money, and those teaching ABCs and poster making less money...let capitalism work, as supply and demand should drive salary, not "I've been here 'X' years unionized nonsense". Stick with the unions, and end up being a Gm/Ford entity verus Toyota/Honda...as it is only a matter the private schools sector gets noticed by the majority and the public school systems go the way of the dinosaurs...

[Siberia]

Originally Posted by MidniteBreeze

-Be more realistic about what some students are able to learn. A student with an IQ of 70 should NOT be in a "mainstream" algebra class! Don't get me wrong, students with disabilities deserve a high quality education too...but I think we're doing everyone a disservice by expecting that all kids are ready to learn the same things at the same time. Again, we don't expect kids to have the same athletic, musical or artistic ability, yet we expect them to have the same academic ability?

Instead we tell every kid they can be anything they want to be, instead of the truth based on how smart they really are. The entire American economy depends on such, as we need people to think they can reach the top, yet we don't even teach them the basics of monetary life in school, such as how to prepare taxes, how to financially live below ones means, how to invest in the markets, etc. Instead we make them memorize useless dates of when Colonel Mustard died on what hill in what year (with the candle stick..LOL), etc.....yeah, that will get one ahead in the real world, useless game show facts that don't amount to squat in the real world of income based careers.

Yet when it comes to sports, it is simple enough to cut members and tell them to try another sport instead as they are not good enough to compete with those who are better. Funny how that works, we are more honest with our kids when it comes to games...

[MidniteBreeze]

Regarding health insurance...sounds like MI has a different system than MN? While I'm very glad to have coverage, I pay a lot of out-of-pocket expenses just like everyone else. My premiums aren't bad (fortunately I only have to cover myself as my husband has his own insurance...the "family" plan premiums are pretty hefty though), but I have high deductibles and have to cover a lot of stuff 100% myself (i.e., eye exams, glasses and even routine physicals.) In my district our health insurance does not "follow" you into retirement. People who retire before they're eligible for medicare have to find their own insurance in the meantime. (I'm sure this is one reason you see so many teachers still working in MN who really should have retired and made room for someone else.)

Again, I'm not complaining because I know a lot of people have it much worse...but I don't know that my benefits are that much better than anyone the 'private' sector? (Certainly nowhere near as good as the benefits we taxpayers so generously 'give' to congress!)

[rimbert]

Originally Posted by scottmi

Okay, yes, it's common knowledge that teaching and being a doctor are difficult in their own ways.


Being a doctor is not that difficult and I'm sure if everyone in this country knew they'd have the opportunity to PAY for 7+ years of college with the potential to earn NO LESS than $100-150k annually, doctors would be commonplace and supply would far outweigh demand.

I sure hope you are a doctor, because it is NOT easy by any stretch of the imagination!