[Coldjensens]

Originally Posted by michiganmoon

"No taxation without representation" was rhetoric without real meaning in 1776 used to inspire people without looking at things in reality. Factually the British offered us representation in Parliament - we turned it down. Factually Americans paid less taxes than people in England in 1776. Also, factually the Americans ran up a huge debt for the British government. You are using a slogan that was false rhetoric in 1776 to strike up some of what I thought was more false rhetoric for the UP leaving Michigan.

This is a spin on the acutal historical facts. The representation in pariment that was offered was a British representative who would "represent" American intersts. Not one of those proley colonials. Americans did pay less taxes than people in England. They also recieved less benefit from the government. I believe that you are referring to the war debt from the French and Indain war. This was not a debt that the Americans ran up, it was a war in America by the British against the French (who got the indians involved). The Brits claimed that the war was for the benefit of America not Britian, but the Americans claimed that they were not asked whether they wanted or felt that they needed that war. It was part of Britain's ongoig war with France, not something the colonials wanted. The problem was that the colonies were originally allowed to tax and govern themselves. However England decided to take away local powers and centralize government. The colonists wanted more local government like they had under their charters. They felt that if they were going to be taxed, it should be by and for local government, not by and for the government in England.

Maybe the UP wants more local government and not ot be governed from Lansing. Joining Canada as some separatists promote would be the exact opposite of what would accomplish that. Becomming a seperate State would allow more local government, but I am not sure that they woudl qualify as a state. Prehaps they can become a territory if they really want to seperate. However I was told that the seperation movement consists of only a tiny portion of the population of the UP.


The biggest complaint that I hear is that they are tired for subsidizing the City of Detroit. I think everyone in the state is tired of subsidizing Detroit and all of its corruption. Maybe we should seperate Detroit and give it to Canada. Or we could make it a federal territory and no longer part of the State. Then we would not need to subsidize the city anymore.

[upandrunning]

No one is going to secede from anything as far as states go. More coffee shop talk. What we do need is religion to get out of the business of telling people how to vote and influence government. Lobbyists to be outlawed. Corporations to get out of funding campaigns. More government regulation where needed. Like pushing the auto industry to make cars that get high MPG, hybrid cars, and energy policy, the hell out of Iraq. Quit trying to tell other countries what to do and how to live. If a bunch of Muslims want to cut heads off for stealing a loaf of bread, it is their business. We have to run our own country. I guess those Christians forgot the part about taking the plank out of their own eye and then being able to see clearly how to extract the straw form someone else’s. Religion more than any other group is responsible for much of the trouble we have today. Christians have the idea that they are the people who are doing gods will, [sounds like what the suicide bombers think] They vote on single issues like praying in schools. [which prayer, to Allah? Jehovah? who?] Anti Abortion, life begins at conception, But they do not give a dam about the kid once it falls out of the womb. They will stand in line at factories in Wichita and hand out flyers to keep out an evil casino, and push the same people who’s souls they want to save to go to Iraq and kill those unchristian Muslims who are going to hell anyways. Tell the people starving after Katrina that it was gods vengeance for a gay pride parade. Smooze bush at the white house and all the time have young boys in the bedroom, Larry Craig, Rev. Teddy bear Haggard. Hypocrite does not even begin to describe these people.

[darstar]

There is no lack of religious dogma here in da UP. Most of it centers around the more rural places , where , people don't get out much. ( There is a lot of that in da UP ).
That said , the UP is quite liberal in its voting. Conservative in its habits ( except Marquette ), and , respective of the USA as their Country. I think the patriotism , along with the , conservativeness , is what killed the last attempt for Statehood. If put to a vote again , now , I don't think it would be much different. A year from now.........that may be another fish boil on the shore.......to think about . Eh ?

[Coldjensens]

Originally Posted by upandrunning

Christians have the idea that they are the people who are doing gods will, [sounds like what the suicide bombers think] They vote on single issues like praying in schools. [which prayer, to Allah? Jehovah? who?] Anti Abortion, life begins at conception, But they do not give a dam about the kid once it falls out of the womb. They will stand in line at factories in Wichita and hand out flyers to keep out an evil casino, and push the same people who’s souls they want to save to go to Iraq and kill those unchristian Muslims who are going to hell anyways.

Thank you for the gorss generalizations informing me of so many things that I did nto know about myself. How did you become the expert on what ALL Chriustians are like or how we think? You are completely wrong. Perhaps you should spend some time in Church and/or reading the Bible.

I do nto know anyone who votes on single issues like praying in schools. In fact, it would be idiotic to do so. UNless you are referrring to a school board election, that issue is not determined by how we vote.


Christians do not think that they are doing Gods will. We want to try to do Gods will but we know that we will fail. However we must keep trying, we will keep failing and we will be forgiven for failing. That is a principal dogma of Christianity.


All fo the Christians that I know who have discussed their feeleings on the issue belive that prayer should be aloowed in school. Any student should be allowed to pray how and to whom they choose. No student should be forced to pray ever. Prayer is meaningless if it is not a choice. The school should stay completely out of students exercise of their freedom of religion. Too many people confuse freedom OF religion with freedom FROM religion.

Personally I have never been to a factory in Utah and I like casinos. I hate what some people do in them, but I enjoy them because I can control myself. I also hate what some people do in cars, but I do not hate cars. There goes your generalization. Obviously, you do not know what you are talking about since you claimed to know the thoughts of all Christians and you ware wrong about me. That is why generalizations are so incredibly foolish.

To be honest with you, I do not know when life begins. The Bible does nto tell us. Most churches do not even presume to tell us. Doctors cannot tell us. Scientests cannot tell us. Only abortion clinic operators and promoters seem to claim any knowlege of whan a baby is not a human being.

I do know that a baby is a baby by 6 months into the pregnancy. They can be born as a full fleged human at that itme. I am pretty sure that a baby is a baby at least a month or two earlier. Who can say when a baby is not a person? Prior to conception it seems safe to say that it is not a person. I do nto think anyone knows whether there is a seperate human life within a few weks of conception, or maybe even right at conception. When is it OK to kill a baby?

However none of this has anything to do with my being Christian. I think everyone even seclar humanists agree that it is wrong to kill a person because they are inconveineint. When a person ebcomes a person is not a quesiton of religion, it is a matter of personal belief. Maybe someday it will be a matter of science, but right now no one knows.

Nor do most Christians believe that it is their position to determine who is going to hell. All I know is that I am not. Whether Muslims go to Hell is up to God not me. I do know that they would not go to Hell if they became true Christians. Thus I would convert them if I could. However I do not want any of them dead. It might be necessary to make some of them dead so that they do not make us dead, but that is a horrible thing not something that anyone wants.

Your genrealizations reflect a lack of maturity and no understanding of the Christian fiath. PLease think a little bit more, and maybe even find out what you are talking about, before you make gross generalizations attacking a billion or more people.

[darstar]

Originally Posted by Coldjensens

Thank you for the gorss generalizations informing me of so many things that I did nto know about myself. How did you become the expert on what ALL Chriustians are like or how we think? You are completely wrong. Perhaps you should spend some time in Church and/or reading the Bible.

I do nto know anyone who votes on single issues like praying in schools. In fact, it would be idiotic to do so. UNless you are referrring to a school board election, that issue is not determined by how we vote.


Christians do not think that they are doing Gods will. We want to try to do Gods will but we know that we will fail. However we must keep trying, we will keep failing and we will be forgiven for failing. That is a principal dogma of Christianity.


All fo the Christians that I know who have discussed their feeleings on the issue belive that prayer should be aloowed in school. Any student should be allowed to pray how and to whom they choose. No student should be forced to pray ever. Prayer is meaningless if it is not a choice. The school should stay completely out of students exercise of their freedom of religion. Too many people confuse freedom OF religion with freedom FROM religion.

Personally I have never been to a factory in Utah and I like casinos. I hate what some people do in them, but I enjoy them because I can control myself. I also hate what some people do in cars, but I do not hate cars. There goes your generalization. Obviously, you do not know what you are talking about since you claimed to know the thoughts of all Christians and you ware wrong about me. That is why generalizations are so incredibly foolish.

To be honest with you, I do not know when life begins. The Bible does nto tell us. Most churches do not even presume to tell us. Doctors cannot tell us. Scientests cannot tell us. Only abortion clinic operators and promoters seem to claim any knowlege of whan a baby is not a human being.

I do know that a baby is a baby by 6 months into the pregnancy. They can be born as a full fleged human at that itme. I am pretty sure that a baby is a baby at least a month or two earlier. Who can say when a baby is not a person? Prior to conception it seems safe to say that it is not a person. I do nto think anyone knows whether there is a seperate human life within a few weks of conception, or maybe even right at conception. When is it OK to kill a baby?

However none of this has anything to do with my being Christian. I think everyone even seclar humanists agree that it is wrong to kill a person because they are inconveineint. When a person ebcomes a person is not a quesiton of religion, it is a matter of personal belief. Maybe someday it will be a matter of science, but right now no one knows.

Nor do most Christians believe that it is their position to determine who is going to hell. All I know is that I am not. Whether Muslims go to Hell is up to God not me. I do know that they would not go to Hell if they became true Christians. Thus I would convert them if I could. However I do not want any of them dead. It might be necessary to make some of them dead so that they do not make us dead, but that is a horrible thing not something that anyone wants.

Your genrealizations reflect a lack of maturity and no understanding of the Christian fiath. PLease think a little bit more, and maybe even find out what you are talking about, before you make gross generalizations attacking a billion or more people.

Your personal dogma gets in there as well , . No, hard as you try , to justify , the answers are not to be found in any book , but , in the way we treat each other , regardless of religion , race , or creed. Your statement of " try to convert them " , gives it all away. Thats what starts wars , divides societies., and angers those who , don't necessarily believe the way you do, you should be ashamed of yourself for being so righteous .

[Coldjensens]

Originally Posted by darstar

Your personal dogma gets in there as well , . No, hard as you try , to justify , the answers are not to be found in any book , but , in the way we treat each other , regardless of religion , race , or creed. Your statement of " try to convert them " , gives it all away. Thats what starts wars , divides societies., and angers those who , don't necessarily believe the way you do, you should be ashamed of yourself for being so righteous .

You are being silly. There are many ways to try to convert someone. The best is by example. I am not talking about shoving my views down somones throat or forcing anyone to do anything. That accomplishes nothing. However if I know that they can have eternal life one way, shouldn't I want everyone to have that opportuniy?

When has a war been started by someon helping someone else?

Why are you so afraid of faith?

[Ivorytickler]

Originally Posted by 100%Michigan

What would you prefer?
Do you think Michigan should flee the USA and join with Canada? Many people I ran into actually prefer for Michigan to join with Canada... not in a negative way but said simply it was meant to be. Others I ran into simply said what state would leave a greater country for a great one? What would you prefer?
On the other hand, is Canada even ready for a state like Michigan or would Canada even want Michigan? Would Michigan become its own providence or just simply join with another? Could this thought of Michigan leaving the USA be consider even possible? Would Michigan do better without USA? Tell me please, what is your oppinion.

Why would Michigan want to be part of Canada? What's Canada going to do for us besides tax us to death like they do their own people?

I know several people who came to Michigan from Canada because they keep more of their income here and can live better.

Besides, geographically, it makes no sense for Michigan to be part of Canada. We're separated from the country by water all around.

[darstar]

Originally Posted by Coldjensens

You are being silly. There are many ways to try to convert someone. The best is by example. I am not talking about shoving my views down somones throat or forcing anyone to do anything. That accomplishes nothing. However if I know that they can have eternal life one way, shouldn't I want everyone to have that opportuniy?

When has a war been started by someon helping someone else?

Why are you so afraid of faith?

The continent of Africa is a good place to start . All the Christian righties going in to convert the heathens,. has been the start , and , continuing strife, endured by the natives , for a long time. Also South America , and our own USA over the years. " If only tho savages would adopt the Jesus way , they wou;ld be saved , and , have a better life"......thats the way it starts , and , it ends with a native American race almost wiped out.
Most wars are religious in nature , just look around at what is going on in the world as we speak.........through in for profit gain , and you have a dangerous mix. I am not afraid of faith as you put it , but , I am weary of your faith , however , its your right to believe in what ever you wish. Just so long as you don't pass judgment on others who do not believe your way.
Now , just to keep on message , sort of , I am sure the Catholics are predominate in the UP. Rightly so , I guess , as they were the first white flag to lay claim to the area, Father Marquette, Baraga , and all that. I wonder , just how well they treated the savages, over the years ? I don't think any religion has a lot of influence these days in the UP , but , I could be wrong.......

[kcam213]

Originally Posted by upandrunning

No one is going to secede from anything as far as states go. More coffee shop talk. What we do need is religion to get out of the business of telling people how to vote and influence government. Lobbyists to be outlawed. Corporations to get out of funding campaigns. More government regulation where needed. Like pushing the auto industry to make cars that get high MPG, hybrid cars, and energy policy, the hell out of Iraq. Quit trying to tell other countries what to do and how to live. If a bunch of Muslims want to cut heads off for stealing a loaf of bread, it is their business. We have to run our own country. I guess those Christians forgot the part about taking the plank out of their own eye and then being able to see clearly how to extract the straw form someone else’s. Religion more than any other group is responsible for much of the trouble we have today. Christians have the idea that they are the people who are doing gods will, [sounds like what the suicide bombers think] They vote on single issues like praying in schools. [which prayer, to Allah? Jehovah? who?] Anti Abortion, life begins at conception, But they do not give a dam about the kid once it falls out of the womb. They will stand in line at factories in Wichita and hand out flyers to keep out an evil casino, and push the same people who’s souls they want to save to go to Iraq and kill those unchristian Muslims who are going to hell anyways. Tell the people starving after Katrina that it was gods vengeance for a gay pride parade. Smooze bush at the white house and all the time have young boys in the bedroom, Larry Craig, Rev. Teddy bear Haggard. Hypocrite does not even begin to describe these people.

dang! can't give points to you... I have to spread the wealth. wtf?

Anyway, reposting is the best I could do.

[ErikU19]

U.S. most armed country with 90 guns per 100 people | Reuters

GENEVA (Reuters) - The United States has 90 guns for every 100 citizens, making it the most heavily armed society in the world, a report released on Tuesday said.
U.S. citizens own 270 million of the world's 875 million known firearms, according to the Small Arms Survey 2007 by the Geneva-based Graduate Institute of International Studies


France, Canada, Sweden, Austria and Germany...with about 30 guns per 100 people

Originally Posted by odinloki1

Canadians own more guns than Americans, they just find ways to not shoot each other with them.