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Old 01-25-2014, 12:40 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magellan View Post
I'm extremely bullish about the State of Michigan and the Southeast Michigan region, but I'm not so bullish about Detroit. The downtown is seeing a resurgence for sure, while at the same time the neighborhoods are still losing residents, schools are closing, the poverty rate is out of control, crime is out of control, and we all know the rest.
Crime and schools have been an issue for decades now. The real question of population stability in Detroit centers around the African American majority. I do not know of any place with a large African American urban population and it not be said that crime and schools are a problem. That is not endemic to Detroit and the African American population in the city was increasing until 2002. The schools have been bad for a long time and crime has been WORSE and the black population was still growing.


Quote:
It's not "magic," it's people. People with high household incomes and high education attainment. If you look at any city that has seen an influx of highly educated people, the employment level for the whole city goes up and wages go up across the board. This is an interesting article out by NPR recently. And I'm not talking about Richard Florida/Cool Cities crap either.
So are you saying that these immigrants are already rich.....or are they going to get rich in Detroit? It did not say anything about the immigrants being wealthy.....just educated. I do not know what secret they have, to come to Detroit and get rich, that others here don't know.

Quote:
What Detroit needs is more pioneers to take a risk and move into the city. 3000 in Midtown is not enough. 50,000 is not enough but it's a start. And frankly Detroit city is a step up from places like Mumbai and most of China. With more people moving in comes more ability to pay the bills and provide security and services. It's not anybody "saving" the city, it's just growth and the spinoff benefits that come from it. "Magically" creating jobs for the impoverished in Detroit is putting the cart before the horse. Where would these jobs come from?

The provincialism of Detroit going on right now will be its demise. Grand Rapids was starting to suffer from that mentality. This "we know best and we don't need to take advice or investments from any outsiders." It even has has a pretty stable population over the last 30 years and yet it struggles to pay for police, roads and parks. As Grand Rapids is beginning to realize, revitalizing a downtown is not nearly enough to create a healthy city. You have to retain and entice residents to live there in the neighborhoods, and your schools have to compete with suburban schools. Downtowns are a start, but they're just phase 1 of a multi-phase process.

A declining population is a drain on the ability of a city to do anything. So I'm not quite sure what other solutions people have. Are there ideas that have been thrown out that I'm missing?

Here's an interesting stat, the Detroit metro area including the Detroit-Livonia-Dearborn Metropolitan Division and the Warren-Troy-Farmington Division regained about 250,000 jobs since 2010, and wages went up in that period for the first time in about 10 years.

How many of those newly employed chose to live in the city of Detroit? How many of those newly employed were city of Detroit residents?
I think people are making this way too complicated.
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Old 01-25-2014, 01:32 PM
 
Location: Grand Rapids Metro
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Originally Posted by Indentured Servant View Post
Crime and schools have been an issue for decades now. The real question of population stability in Detroit centers around the African American majority. I do not know of any place with a large African American urban population and it not be said that crime and schools are a problem. That is not endemic to Detroit and the African American population in the city was increasing until 2002. The schools have been bad for a long time and crime has been WORSE and the black population was still growing.




So are you saying that these immigrants are already rich.....or are they going to get rich in Detroit? It did not say anything about the immigrants being wealthy.....just educated. I do not know what secret they have, to come to Detroit and get rich, that others here don't know.



I think people are making this way too complicated.

The immigrants are not already rich, but they have at least a bachelor's degree or Masters, and/or a highly technical degree, and in order to qualify for an EB-2 visa, they have to already have a job in their field already lined up. So a degree and a professional job generally puts someone in the high household income category (I never said wealthy).

There are people in the Detroit area who have some "magic" you keep referring to who are wealthy. It can be done.

So what's your "simple" solution IndenturedServant? As in, steps 1, 2, and 3 in a five to ten year plan would be a good start. Because if you don't have a specific solution, I don't think knocking ideas (that may or may not work) solves anything.

Last edited by magellan; 01-25-2014 at 01:43 PM..
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Old 01-25-2014, 02:35 PM
 
Location: Nashville, TN -
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Originally Posted by magellan View Post
I think it's an interesting idea. Toronto is one of the fastest growing metro areas in North America, mainly due to international immigration and ease of work visas. It grew about 500,000 people in just the last 5 years.

Toronto falling from grace? Canada

City of Toronto: Toronto Facts, Toronto's racial diversity

And Canadian cities are becoming oppressively expensive due to all of this growth. If you ever watch HGTV, a lot of those house hunter/renovation shows are shot in the Toronto area. The prices always floor me. If you can convince international immigrants that it's a good time to buy U.S. real estate, in Detroit, why not.
I've been reading the Michigan/Detroit CD boards for years, but now feel compelled to post.

We're from the Toronto area and lived in Metro Detroit for 14 (long) years before moving south 3 years ago.

Yes, Toronto is INSANELY expensive in terms of housing. It has been for a long time, as have most major Canadian and US cities. It doesn't take long to see that ALL of these cities have a number of features in common. And it's precisely these "selling" features that make these places so attractive to many people (including most immigrants) and what, unfortunately, also makes them so expensive. In Canada, these cities would include Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal, Vancouver, Calgary, Halifax. In the US, obviously, they are New York, Boston, DC, Chicago, San Francisco/Bay Area, L.A, Seattle, and perhaps Atlanta.

Before I continue to talk about those features, though, I'd like to give some credit to Metro Detroit and Michigan. I want to be fair, and I've learned how touchy some people on the Michigan boards can be . While it became clear after a few years that Metro Detroit was not for me, there WERE indeed things about the area and Michigan generally that I appreciated and grew fond of. First, I never tired of the green, leafy prettiness of the area. I disagree with the other thread on this board questioning whether Metro Detroit is an unattractive metro area. To me, it does an excellent job of building residential and commercial areas while also protecting as many trees and green spaces as possible. That the Metro area has as many lakes as it does is also a major plus. In my opinion, suburban Detroit is FAR more attractive than suburban Toronto.

I also appreciated the quality of the education system, including good, well-supported public libraries. I liked the emphasis placed on education, literacy, and lifelong learning. I loved the academic and hipster vibe of Ann Arbor (great town) and the beautiful beaches and towns of Lake Michigan (spending the 4th of July on the beach and wandering around Saugatuck was one of our favorite things to do). And, btw, I enthusiastically promote these aspects of Michigan to anyone and everyone unfamiliar with Michigan.

Now, back to the subject at hand. Since you brought up Toronto, I'll use it as an example of those mega-cities mentioned above. There are very clear reasons why Toronto is one the fastest growing metro areas in North America and why it attracts high levels of international immigration. First, is opportunity. Metro Toronto is prosperous on its own, but is also part of the flourishing area known as the Golden Horseshoe surrounding Lake Ontario from Toronto right down to the Niagara area bordering New York state. Its economy is diverse and strong, with a highly-educated work force; access to quality, universal health care; good, living wages; and well-maintained infrastructure.

The city of Toronto proper is a thriving, safe center that anchors and unifies the metro area with business, entertainment, high-demand residential neighborhoods, and dependable municipal services. The city of Detroit, on the other hand, is, as we know, crime-ridden, corrupt, and broke. Metro Detroit is exclusively car-centered (but with terrible roads) with NO alternatives for either residents or visitors; Metro Toronto, in comparison, offers an excellent, EXPANDING public transportation system, both within the city and suburbs AND connecting Toronto to other cities in Ontario. This is invaluable to commuters and tourists visiting the area's many attractions and, therefore, helps generate a lot of money and keep unemployment rates lower than they would be without public transit. Where Metro Toronto is dynamic, outward-thinking, and full of life, Metro Detroit is conservative, insular, and lackluster. The city of Toronto is attractive and vital; huge swaths of the city of Detroit - well, um, I guess there's no way to phrase this diplomatically, so here goes - resemble a third-world country.

I could go on, but this post is too long as it is, and I'm sure you already get the idea. In short, it takes more than cheap housing and being able to shop at big-box stores on the weekend to attract newcomers to a city. Believe it or not, some people also value quality of life, and the features I've mentioned (as well as others I haven't) are a part of that consideration. If you're from Metro Detroit, you might disagree with my assessment. If you've grown up here and haven't experienced living elsewhere, things like public transportation and a thriving city core may not be important to you. You might just be used to how Metro Detroit is and has been for decades. But for outsiders, Detroit's negative aspects can be off-putting and create feelings of culture shock. I know they did for me.

Besides, there is a darker side to that inexpensive Michigan housing that you laud. I know because we lost money on our very nice, middle class, suburban Detroit home, as did thousands of others. If there are reasons why housing is expensive in cities like New York and Boston, there are reasons why housing is inexpensive in Metro Detroit.

Yes, Metro Detroit may continue to attract immigrants from very poor or war-ravaged countries who are understandably grateful to escape to the security of Detroit and to perhaps be reunited with family. But, overall, potential immigrants, particularly younger and educated ones, are not going to flock in droves to Metro Detroit or Michigan until the area catches up to other cities and states in terms of opportunity, economic vitality, and public amenities.

Last edited by newdixiegirl; 01-25-2014 at 03:37 PM..
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Old 01-25-2014, 02:52 PM
 
13,806 posts, read 9,638,887 times
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Originally Posted by magellan View Post
The immigrants are not already rich, but they have at least a bachelor's degree or Masters, and/or a highly technical degree, and in order to qualify for an EB-2 visa, they have to already have a job in their field already lined up. So a degree and a professional job generally puts someone in the high household income category (I never said wealthy).

There are people in the Detroit area who have some "magic" you keep referring to who are wealthy. It can be done.

So what's your "simple" solution IndenturedServant? As in, steps 1, 2, and 3 in a five to ten year plan would be a good start. Because if you don't have a specific solution, I don't think knocking ideas (that may or may not work) solves anything.
First and foremost, Detroit, the city and region, reached its zenith due to the auto industry. By the same influence, the region suffered along with the fate of the US auto industry. The region was unstable because its primary industry was unstable. The region declined because its primary industry declined. That industry hit bottom, was forced to restructure, and now its own the mend and stable. Hence, point 1 is that a stable auto industry gives the region a solid foundation to build from.....which it has not had in the last 40 or so years.

The second big issue with Detroit and the region was race. The racial attitudes, mostly from whites, which polarized the region and divided the city and suburbs by race, have improved considerably as a result of the younger generation. Hence, young whites are not as averse to patronizing Detroit or living in Detroit, as previous generations of whites have been. Hence, point 2 is that improved racial attitudes are already helping the area.


The third big issue for Detroit was the idea or belief that the suburbs, region and state could reach its maximal potential regardless of what happened to the city of Detroit. Hence, point 3 is that nearly every political entity realizes that Detroit condition and image is hurting the region and state and they also realize that young people are trending more and more to urban lifestyles and that if Michigan big and small companies want to attract talented people that it has to offer an attractive urban environment and hence Detroit will need investment to benefit not just Detroit, but the region and state to help market the image of Michigan. That's already happening.

The fourth big issue for Detroit is that while the area and state was struggling through most of the 2000's, many other areas were booming economically. This pulled many Detroiter's to places like Atlanta, North Carolina and such. However, those areas, and many others, with the exception of Texas metros, have struggling economies as well. Already, the last two years, Michigan has seen a slight increase in its population, as well as the regions, and Detroit proper has experienced a slower rate of population loss. Those are already signs that trends are reversing.

Next, many sun belt regions are not tenable in the long term. They will face severe water crisis in the coming years. Michigan as a whole will become more and more attractive for its location. It will also become very attractive because the cost of living has fallen. Mortage or Rent is the biggest expense of a household and one can really low rents and housing cost in Detroit relative to most Big cities. Eventually the cost will attract people.

A strong solid stable economy in Michigan will lay the foundation for growth. Immigrants, those without much education, will be attracted to the city of Detroit once the REGION offers good employment opportunities. They may not make much money in the "new economy", but they can get a home in Detroit for little or nothing, which will make their low wages go much further.


Nothing really needs to be done.....the area just needs to be allowed to heal. Again, however, its the pessimist and those who spread negative things to say about Detroit wherever they go that keeps the inertia against progress so strong. Everywhere you go there are people talking about what a dump Detroit is and how its never going to come back and yadda yadda yadda......many of which never is set foot in Detroit proper. Its just "trendy" to bash Detroit. Detroit is NOT going to come back in a year or two years.....but by 5 years it will be clear that Detroit has turned around and will be a good place to invest.
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Old 01-25-2014, 02:55 PM
 
Location: Grand Rapids Metro
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Originally Posted by newdixiegirl View Post
I've been reading the Michigan/Detroit CD boards for years, but now feel compelled to post.

We're from the Toronto area and lived in Metro Detroit for 14 (long) years before moving south 3 years ago.

Yes, Toronto is INSANELY expensive in terms of housing. It has been for a long time, as have most major Canadian and US cities. It doesn't long to see that ALL of these cities have a number of features in common. And it's precisely these "selling" features that make these places so attractive to many people (including most immigrants) and what, unfortunately, also makes them so expensive. In Canada, these cities would include Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal, Vancouver, Calgary, Halifax. In the US, obviously, they are New York, Boston, DC, Chicago, San Francisco/Bay Area, L.A, Seattle, and perhaps Atlanta.

Before I continue to talk about those features, though, I'd like to give some credit to Metro Detroit and Michigan. I want to be fair, and I've learned how touchy some people on the Michigan boards can be . While it became clear after a few years that Metro Detroit was not for me, there WERE indeed things about the area and Michigan generally that I appreciated and grew fond of. First, I never tired of the green, leafy prettiness of the area. I disagree with the other thread on this board questioning whether Metro Detroit is an unattractive metro area. To me, it does an excellent job of building residential and commercial areas while also protecting as many trees and green spaces as possible. That the Metro area has as many lakes as it does is also a major plus. In my opinion, suburban Detroit is FAR more attractive than suburban Toronto.

I also appreciated the quality of the education system, including good, well-supported public libraries. I liked the emphasis placed on education, literacy, and lifelong learning. I loved the academic and hipster vibe of Ann Arbor (great town) and the beautiful beaches and towns of Lake Michigan (spending the 4th of July on the beach and wandering around Saugatuck was one of our favorite things to do). And, btw, I enthusiastically promote these aspects of Michigan to anyone and everyone unfamiliar with Michigan.

Now, back to the subject at hand. Since you brought up Toronto, I'll use it as an example of those mega-cities mentioned above. There are very clear reasons why Toronto is one the fastest growing metro areas in North America and why it attracts high levels of international immigration. First, is opportunity. Metro Toronto is prosperous on its own, but is also part of the flourishing area known as the Golden Horseshoe surrounding Lake Ontario from Toronto right down to the Niagara area bordering New York state. Its economy is diverse and strong, with a highly-educated work force; access to quality, universal health care; good, living wages; and well-maintained infrastructure.

The city of Toronto proper is a thriving, safe center that anchors and unifies the metro area with business, entertainment, high-demand residential neighborhoods, and dependable municipal services. The city of Detroit, on the other hand, is, as we know, crime-ridden, corrupt, and broke. Metro Detroit is exclusively car-centered (but with terrible roads) with NO alternatives for either residents or visitors; Metro Toronto, in comparison, offers an excellent, EXPANDING public transportation system both within the city and suburbs AND connecting Toronto to other cities in Ontario. This is invaluable to commuters and tourists visiting the area's many attractions and, therefore, helps generate a lot of money and keep unemployment rates lower than they would be without public transit. Where Metro Toronto is dynamic, outward-thinking, and full of life, Metro Detroit is conservative, insular, and lackluster. The city of Toronto is attractive and vital; huge swaths of the city of Detroit - well, um, I guess there's no way to phrase this diplomatically, so here goes - resemble a third-world country.

I could go on, but this post is too long as it is, and I'm sure you already get the idea. In short, it takes more than cheap housing and being able to shop at big-box stores on the weekend to attract newcomers to a city. Believe it or not, some people also value quality of life, and the features I've mentioned (as well as others I haven't) are a part of that consideration. If you're from Metro Detroit, you might disagree with my assessment. If you've grown up here and haven't experienced living elsewhere, things like public transportation and a thriving city core may not be important to you. You might just be used to how Metro Detroit is and has been for decades. But for outsiders, Detroit's negative aspects can be off-putting and create feelings of culture shock. I know they did for me.

Besides, there is a darker side to that inexpensive Michigan housing that you laud. I know because we lost money our very nice, middle class, suburban Detroit home, as did thousands of others. If there are reasons why housing is expensive in cities like New York and Boston, there are reasons why housing is inexpensive in Detroit.

Yes, Metro Detroit may continue to attract immigrants from very poor or war-ravaged countries who are understandably grateful to escape to the security of Detroit and to perhaps be reunited with family. But, overall, potential immigrants, particularly younger and educated ones, are not going to flock in droves to Metro Detroit or Michigan until the area catches up to other cities and states in terms of opportunity, economic vitality, and public amenities.
Good post newdixiegirl, but how do you do that? How does Detroit go from the city that has lost the most people in the history of the United States and is still losing people, to a vibrant city with a good quality of life? To me the answer is radical ideas like this (and many, many more radical ideas and business pioneers).

If for instance, you are living in another country and could choose between applying for one of these work visas and having to line up a job and then waiting 1 to 2 years in Atlanta, or agreeing to have residency in the city of Detroit for a specified time like 3 - 5 years, and get one of these visas in 6 months (you can work anywhere in the Detroit area), don't you think at least "some" of the millions of people seeking work visas each year would consider it?

There are some really cool mid-rise projects going up in Midtown Detroit that they could live in. And more planned. Wayne State is nearby so you get at least some big city vibe. The farmers market, cool bars and Whole Foods. Downtown and along the North riverfront.

Detroit/Michigan could set a goal of 5000 or 10,000 of these a year.

Toronto (or Chicago) was not always the city it is today. A series of "somethings" happened that made them what they are today.
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Old 01-25-2014, 04:05 PM
 
Location: Nashville, TN -
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[quote=Indentured Servant;33177612]

The third big issue for Detroit was the idea or belief that the suburbs, region and state could reach its maximal potential regardless of what happened to the city of Detroit. Hence, point 3 is that nearly every political entity realizes that Detroit condition and image is hurting the region and state and they also realize that young people are trending more and more to urban lifestyles and that if Michigan big and small companies want to attract talented people that it has to offer an attractive urban environment and hence Detroit will need investment to benefit not just Detroit, but the region and state to help market the image of Michigan. That's already happening.



Yes, Indentured Servant!

That's a symptom of the attitude of insularity that I found plagues Metro Detroit. See no evil, speak no evil, hear no evil. As long as me and mine are doing okay out here in the nice, leafy suburbs, and MY kids are safe and go to good schools, and I can still golf at one of many beautiful golf courses in the suburbs, then who cares what happens in Detroit?
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Old 01-25-2014, 04:07 PM
 
Location: Michigan
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Originally Posted by magellan View Post
Good post newdixiegirl, but how do you do that? How does Detroit go from the city that has lost the most people in the history of the United States and is still losing people, to a vibrant city with a good quality of life? To me the answer is radical ideas like this (and many, many more radical ideas and business pioneers).
Suburbs and city working together for a common goal? In SE Michigan? That does seem radical.
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Old 01-25-2014, 04:10 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Indentured Servant View Post
A strong solid stable economy in Michigan will lay the foundation for growth. Immigrants, those without much education, will be attracted to the city of Detroit once the REGION offers good employment opportunities. They may not make much money in the "new economy", but they can get a home in Detroit for little or nothing, which will make their low wages go much further.
Maybe instead of only the EB-2 visas, individuals from the Diversity Immigrant Visa program or other visa types could also be allocated to Detroit.
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Old 01-25-2014, 05:20 PM
 
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I think this proposal is somewhat premature. First, Detroit needs to build a metro system connecting all of its suburban pedestrian areas and institutions. Then Detroit needs to raze the entire area between Dearborn and Grosse Pointe south of I-94. After the area south of I-94 is completely clear of bight, it will be an area of "villages" Springwells, Mexicantown, Corktown, Woodbridge, Midtown, Dowtown, Eastern Market, Rivertown, Marina District, and Indian Village. Then the city should concentrate on attracting new corporations to the city. Then the city could concentrate on rebuilding these cleared out areas south of I-94 with new housing and then invite educated immigrants to work in Techtown and Downtown corporations.

In short, Detroit needs a robust metro system, a new urban plan with a huge cleared out area which is safe, a cleaned up city government, more competitive tax rate, and a new educated population base from the metro area, other states, and abroad.
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Old 01-25-2014, 08:43 PM
 
Location: Nashville, TN -
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Originally Posted by magellan View Post
Good post newdixiegirl, but how do you do that? How does Detroit go from the city that has lost the most people in the history of the United States and is still losing people, to a vibrant city with a good quality of life? To me the answer is radical ideas like this (and many, many more radical ideas and business pioneers).

If for instance, you are living in another country and could choose between applying for one of these work visas and having to line up a job and then waiting 1 to 2 years in Atlanta, or agreeing to have residency in the city of Detroit for a specified time like 3 - 5 years, and get one of these visas in 6 months (you can work anywhere in the Detroit area), don't you think at least "some" of the millions of people seeking work visas each year would consider it?

There are some really cool mid-rise projects going up in Midtown Detroit that they could live in. And more planned. Wayne State is nearby so you get at least some big city vibe. The farmers market, cool bars and Whole Foods. Downtown and along the North riverfront.

Detroit/Michigan could set a goal of 5000 or 10,000 of these a year.

Toronto (or Chicago) was not always the city it is today. A series of "somethings" happened that made them what they are today.
Yes, I agree. Toronto and Chicago weren't always the great cities they are today.

And I think you're right: to turn itself around, a community has to implement radical ideas and plans. But in order for those implementations to take hold and become established norms, attitudes must change, as well. I have a gut feeling that that's where the biggest difference between Detroit and these more successful cities lies.

In other words, even if Metro Detroit were to have a fantastic, state-of-the art transit system in the near future (work with me, here, okay? ), I can't see Metro Detroiters actually being willing to support and use it UNLESS they undergo a concurrent paradigm shift. Would they (and could they) think beyond the convenience of their automobiles as their only form of transportation? Would they (and could they) be willing to transform from an exclusively car-dependent culture to a public transit culture? Would they be willing to change their very sedentary ways?

Cities like Toronto, Chicago, New York and Boston have had public transit in place for many years, and depending on the mode of transport, for more than a century. Clearly, demand for public transit already existed in those cities. Plus, their populations have had many decades to incorporate the use of public transit into their lives, collectively speaking. I know lots of people who use public transit exclusively, and choose not to own cars. Metro Detroiters, in comparison, have had many years of car-dependency conditioning, thanks to the powerful political and social influences of the auto industry.

The same goes for the changes in the downtown area that you alluded to. It's great that these changes have happened, but again, Detroiters must support these changes. They have to GET OUT and about, get out of the suburbs, and actually consider going into the city and walking around *gasp!* I always found native Detroiters to be the most socially insular bunch I think I've every come across. Where people in other cities either LIVE in the city (living there is often their preference if they can afford it) or regularly go into the city for leisure, I found that Detroiters considered that notion completely alien. They're just not used to it because it hasn't ever been a part of their lives as highly-sheltered Detroit suburbanites.

But I believe that Detroit CAN become a thriving, prosperous, active metro area. It won't happen overnight, obviously, but with commitment and changes in thinking, it could be a reality within, say, 25 years. It wasn't going to happen soon enough for me or my kids, but it could become a new, 21st century city for the next generation.

Last edited by newdixiegirl; 01-25-2014 at 09:48 PM..
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