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Old 01-25-2014, 09:00 PM
 
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The Framework | Detroit Works Project
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Old 01-25-2014, 09:25 PM
 
Location: Grand Rapids Metro
8,882 posts, read 19,776,432 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newdixiegirl View Post
Yes, I agree. Toronto and Chicago weren't always the great cities they are today.

And I think you're right: to turn itself around, a community has to implement radical ideas and plans. But in order for those implementations to take hold and become established norms, attitudes must change, as well. I have a gut feeling that that's where the biggest difference between Detroit and these more successful cities lies.

In other words, even if Metro Detroit were to have a fantastic, state-of-the art transit system in the near future (work with me, here, okay? ), I can't see Metro Detroiters actually being willing to support and use it UNLESS they undergo a concurrent paradigm shift. Would they (and could they) think beyond the convenience of their automobiles as their only form of transportation? Would they (and could they) be willing to transform from an exclusively car-dependent culture to a public transit culture? Would they be willing to change their very sedentary ways?

Cities like Toronto, Chicago, New York and Boston have had public transit in place for many, many years, and depending on the mode of transport, for more than a century. Clearly, demand for public transit already existed in those cities. Plus, their populations have had many decades to incorporate the use of public transit into their lives, collectively speaking. I know lots of people who use public transit exclusively, and choose not to own cars. Metro Detroiters, in comparison, have had many years of car-dependency conditioning, thanks to the powerful political and social influences of the auto industry.

The same goes for the changes in the downtown area that you alluded to. It's great that these changes have happened, but again, Detroiters must support these changes. They have to GET OUT and about, get out of the suburbs, and actually consider going into the city and walking around *gasp!* I always found native Detroiters to be the most culturally insular bunch I think I've every come across. Where people in other cities either LIVE in the city (living there is often their preference if they can afford it) or regularly go into the city for leisure, I found that Detroiters considered that notion completely alien. They're just not used to it because it hasn't ever been a part of their lives as highly-sheltered Detroit suburbanites.

But I believe that Detroit CAN become a thriving, prosperous, active metro area. It won't happen overnight, obviously, but with commitment and changes in thinking, it could be a reality within, say, 25 years. It wasn't going to happen soon enough for me or my kids, but it could become a new, 21st century city for the next generation.

There's the old saying: urban by choice or urban by necessity. Detroit needs more urban by choice. Human beings, if given the choice of where to live, will most likely take what they perceive to be the better value. Right now, Detroit has very little value proposition. It's a great place to visit, as you mentioned, and getting better. How is to live?

Property tax millage rates in the city of Detroit are 67 mills. That's more than twice what most communities in Michigan are. We pay 27 in one of the best high school districts in the State (#11). Highland Park city is 77 mills. Bloomfield Hills is 39 mills. Farmington Hills is 35. Mt Clemens is 31 mills. So why choose Detroit or Highland Park? Where the hell do all my tax dollars go? The city is bank.rupt.

What is Detroit's income tax rate? 2.45%. Highland Park is 2%. City of Grand Rapids is 1.3% yet has a balanced budget and a stable population. Guess what? No city or municipality in Oakland or Macomb County charge an income tax (except Port Huron). None, nada. None in Livingston County either. They have balanced budgets and are growing (wealth, housing values are rebounding, etc).

So Detroit's value proposition to live there is unsafe neighborhoods, a bankrupt city hall, some of the worst schools in the state, substandard transit, street lights that don't work, an old housing stock in poor shape, minimal police and security, annndddd you get all that at premium tax rates, both property and income tax wise. And if you're a business, you pay non homestead property tax rates in the 80s and a 2% corporate income tax rate. A safe office park off of 696 has no corporate income tax and property taxes in the 30s.

HOWEVER, it's still better than most of the cities in Russia... Bring on the EB2 immigrants.

Actually, I didn't realize Detroit's tax rates were this high. I knew they were high, but WTFFF.


http://www.michigan.gov/documents/ta...e_417267_7.pdf

http://www.michigan.gov/taxes/0,4676...7984--,00.html
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Old 01-25-2014, 09:30 PM
 
Location: Nashville, TN -
9,588 posts, read 5,793,444 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magellan View Post
There's the old saying: urban by choice or urban by necessity. Detroit needs more urban by choice. Human beings, if given the choice of where to live, will most likely take what they perceive to be the better value. Right now, Detroit has very little value proposition. It's a great place to visit, as you mentioned, and getting better. How is to live?

Property tax millage rates in the city of Detroit are 67 mills. That's more than twice what most communities in Michigan are. We pay 27 in one of the best high school districts in the State (#11). Highland Park city is 77 mills. Bloomfield Hills is 39 mills. Farmington Hills is 35. Mt Clemens is 31 mills. So why choose Detroit or Highland Park? Where the hell do all my tax dollars go? The city is bank.rupt.

What is Detroit's income tax rate? 2.45%. Highland Park is 2%. City of Grand Rapids is 1.3% yet has a balanced budget and a stable population. Guess what? No city or municipality in Oakland or Macomb County charge an income tax (except Port Huron). None, nada. None in Livingston County either. They have balanced budgets and are growing (wealth, housing values are rebounding, etc).

So Detroit's value proposition to live there is unsafe neighborhoods, a bankrupt city hall, some of the worst schools in the state, substandard transit, street lights that don't work, an old housing stock in poor shape, minimal police and security, annndddd you get all that at premium tax rates, both property and income tax wise. And if you're a business, you pay non homestead property tax rates in the 80s and a 2% corporate income tax rate. A safe office park off of 696 has no corporate income tax and property taxes in the 30s.

HOWEVER, it's still better than most of the cities in Russia... Bring on the EB2 immigrants.

Well, that's one way to look at it, I guess.
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Old 01-25-2014, 09:48 PM
 
3,787 posts, read 6,968,712 times
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EB-2 visa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 01-25-2014, 09:53 PM
 
Location: Grand Rapids Metro
8,882 posts, read 19,776,432 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newdixiegirl View Post
Well, that's one way to look at it, I guess.
I should've put *end rant* That was a long post.
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Old 01-25-2014, 11:40 PM
 
Location: west mich
5,739 posts, read 6,897,981 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Republic of Michigan View Post
Thanks, I like their focus on "long term planning" which is what is needed. This is one organization, but it would be nice to list some more so we can keep tabs on all of them - in other words, get "the big picture" of community activist organizations. Sometimes they can be too fragmented, or unaware of each other. Working together they could probably accomplish a lot.
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Old 01-26-2014, 08:06 AM
 
Location: Grand Rapids Metro
8,882 posts, read 19,776,432 times
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"Detroit taxes on a $150,000 house were $4,885, twice the national average of $1,983.

From The Detroit News: Tax burden, low property values lead to exodus of Detroit residents | The Detroit News

If I make $80,000 a year and buy a $250,000 condo in midtown, my taxes to the city/county alone are almost $10,000/year ($8000 property taxes/$1900 income taxes). If I also own a business in Detroit that brings in $1 million in revenue, I pay another $20000.

That needs to change immediately. The only reason that businesses like Gilbert's, GM and Blue Cross blue Shield are moving downtown is because they get all or most of those taxes exempted. Not the same for small business owners.

And 40% of Detroit residents aren't paying their city owed taxes now. Slashing the rates in half would probably double revenue.

In our neighborhood in GR, you can buy a $300k home and your kids will go to the 11th best school district in the state. Your property taxes are about $4500, no income tax, virtually no crime, you can throw a rock and hit 3 Starbucks, a basically brand new Meijer and another high end grocery store, a movie theater complex, 30 restaurants that are less than 10 years old, 25 miles of bike trails out our back door, 35 minutes to Lake Michigan, 10% a year housing appreciation, population growth, and $120k average household income. It shouldn't come as a surprise that about 1/3 of our neighborhood of 200 homes are international immigrants (by my estimation of seeing neighbors out a lot in the summer). 1/2 moved here from some other state for a job here.

The only downside is that wages are generally lower here than Detroit. The one trade off.

So again, why should people take the inferior choice? Detroit over thousands of other choices out there, even just across 696?

Last edited by magellan; 01-26-2014 at 08:20 AM..
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Old 01-27-2014, 01:18 AM
 
Location: Sparta, TN
865 posts, read 1,711,736 times
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I've approved of most of Snyder's ideas but this one is horrible. It's bad enough with the H-1B but now he wants to bring in a flood of EB-2's? Newsflash: there aren't enough jobs for the existing Americans -- there is absolutely no NEED for H-1B's or EB-2's. The 2.5 jobs created for Americans for every immigrant could be true but the 2.5 jobs will be burger flippers whereas the 1 immigrant job will have been a high paying job that a college educated American could have taken. Snyder probably loved the H-1B's as a computer industry executive since it gave him a captive work force at below average wages but I'm betting no American IT worker did. I guess the EB-2 is just another way of getting around the H-1B caps. Note how they mentioned Information Technology as one of the primary fields they want the EB-2's for.

They should eliminate the H-1B and EB-2 visa's immediately. Wages would then go up for the American IT worker and we'd have near 100% employment. In 4-5 yrs, there would be a huge influx of new college graduates in these fields since it's an area where they'd have great placement options unlike most other fields these days. Any labor shortage would be fixed in a very short time with American workers. Right now there's very little incentive to go into IT as a college student. You're going into a glutted field where both business and government have colluded to make sure that wages are stagnant or dropping and you'll be competing with immigrants that easily and routinely commit fraud with respect to their actual qualifications and experience. If you look at the IT departments of most major businesses, you'll be lucky to seen any Americans with the possible exception of management.

This is the equivalent of making Detroit a sanctuary city for illegal aliens because it'll be good for the automotive industry if they don't have to pay union wages. The union workers would never stand for this but there never seems to be an outcry from the white collar workers who get displaced with basically the same policy with the H-1B and EB-2 visas.
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Old 01-27-2014, 07:23 AM
 
Location: Grand Rapids Metro
8,882 posts, read 19,776,432 times
Reputation: 3920
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparrow_temp View Post
I've approved of most of Snyder's ideas but this one is horrible. It's bad enough with the H-1B but now he wants to bring in a flood of EB-2's? Newsflash: there aren't enough jobs for the existing Americans -- there is absolutely no NEED for H-1B's or EB-2's. The 2.5 jobs created for Americans for every immigrant could be true but the 2.5 jobs will be burger flippers whereas the 1 immigrant job will have been a high paying job that a college educated American could have taken. Snyder probably loved the H-1B's as a computer industry executive since it gave him a captive work force at below average wages but I'm betting no American IT worker did. I guess the EB-2 is just another way of getting around the H-1B caps. Note how they mentioned Information Technology as one of the primary fields they want the EB-2's for.

They should eliminate the H-1B and EB-2 visa's immediately. Wages would then go up for the American IT worker and we'd have near 100% employment. In 4-5 yrs, there would be a huge influx of new college graduates in these fields since it's an area where they'd have great placement options unlike most other fields these days. Any labor shortage would be fixed in a very short time with American workers. Right now there's very little incentive to go into IT as a college student. You're going into a glutted field where both business and government have colluded to make sure that wages are stagnant or dropping and you'll be competing with immigrants that easily and routinely commit fraud with respect to their actual qualifications and experience. If you look at the IT departments of most major businesses, you'll be lucky to seen any Americans with the possible exception of management.

This is the equivalent of making Detroit a sanctuary city for illegal aliens because it'll be good for the automotive industry if they don't have to pay union wages. The union workers would never stand for this but there never seems to be an outcry from the white collar workers who get displaced with basically the same policy with the H-1B and EB-2 visas.
I can name 6 tech companies off the top of my head in West Michigan who can't fill IT/developer jobs; good paying development jobs. You're pretty much guaranteed a job after graduation if you go for a computer science/IT degree at GVSU, yet the enrollment in that program has not gone up. Why do you think that is?

Most of these companies have to cast their nets nationwide to get any worthwhile candidates, which is a challenge because most young people aren't going to leave Austin or Denver to come to West Michigan. So why not open up it up to international immigrants? We were all descended from international immigrants at one time, and many of our ancestors came in and undercut wages of the people who had come before them. We all survived (and thrived).
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Old 01-27-2014, 07:49 AM
 
3,787 posts, read 6,968,712 times
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Sparrow_temp hit the nail on the head. That is exactly what happens in IT. Exactly. Contractors and companies outsourcing, undercutting wages and spreading the propaganda there are no "educated" IT workers in the U.S.A. because they want CHEAP labor. Oftentimes the contractors are across the hall from one another. And, they're all in cahoots with each other: Big companies, head hunters, contractors, legislators...all undercutting the wage of the worker. Many of these companies have legislators in their back pockets, some of the head honchos being former legislators themselves. Plus, the company is making record profits. It isn't a new story that companies get rich off the backs of labor.

The whole Synder plan can be summed up like this: Michigan looking for CHEAP labor.

It's like my favorite saying from one of my friends, "they're pizzing on your boots and tellin you it's rainin". Don't believe it.

There ARE "educated" workers in the U.S.A. This whole deal with IT and being outsourced has been going on a long time.

Last edited by oldtoiletsmkgdflrpots; 01-27-2014 at 08:15 AM.. Reason: Wanted: CHEAP LABOR
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