Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Michigan
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 01-24-2014, 11:58 AM
 
1,636 posts, read 2,123,950 times
Reputation: 1827

Advertisements

Yahoo!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 01-24-2014, 01:46 PM
 
Location: Grand Rapids Metro
8,882 posts, read 19,766,626 times
Reputation: 3920
Quote:
Originally Posted by Republic of Michigan View Post
I think it's an interesting idea. Toronto is one of the fastest growing metro areas in North America, mainly due to international immigration and ease of work visas. It grew about 500,000 people in just the last 5 years.

Toronto falling from grace? Canada

City of Toronto: Toronto Facts, Toronto's racial diversity

And Canadian cities are becoming oppressively expensive due to all of this growth. If you ever watch HGTV, a lot of those house hunter/renovation shows are shot in the Toronto area. The prices always floor me. If you can convince international immigrants that it's a good time to buy U.S. real estate, in Detroit, why not.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-24-2014, 02:23 PM
 
13,806 posts, read 9,637,612 times
Reputation: 5243
To me, this is akin to the difference between whole foods, as a source of vital nutrients, versus vitamins. The idea or concept of vitamins is that one can isolate and extract, from the whole food source, an active nutrient or compound and it will benefit the body. Well, what was later learned is that the extracted compound needs the synergy with the other compounds in the whole food source, to have maximal benefit for the body.

Yes, Detroit could use immigrants, but not through synthetic means. Detroit needs immigrants as part of the whole food source, not as an extract that will somehow nourish Detroit's economy. In other words, the whole food is a solid economy. Immigration growth comes because of a strong economy.... a strong economy is then augmented by immigration growth. Its synergistic and symbiotic. Simply taking the ingredient of of immigration, and attempting to use it as a vitamin to nourish Detroit will not work. Detroit needs the WHOLE FOOD source (Strong Economy), not synthetic substitutes or extracted ingredients of REAL GROWTH as a substitute. Besides, it will just lead to racial animosity and confrontation between the immigrants and the native poor population.

Last edited by Indentured Servant; 01-24-2014 at 03:24 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-24-2014, 04:40 PM
 
Location: Rust Belt
211 posts, read 297,486 times
Reputation: 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by magellan View Post
I think it's an interesting idea. Toronto is one of the fastest growing metro areas in North America, mainly due to international immigration and ease of work visas. It grew about 500,000 people in just the last 5 years.

Toronto falling from grace? Canada

City of Toronto: Toronto Facts, Toronto's racial diversity

And Canadian cities are becoming oppressively expensive due to all of this growth. If you ever watch HGTV, a lot of those house hunter/renovation shows are shot in the Toronto area. The prices always floor me. If you can convince international immigrants that it's a good time to buy U.S. real estate, in Detroit, why not.
Toronto has grown a lot. Most of the growth has been from then, HK immigrants and now, Mainland Chinese immigrants (predominately asian).

A lot of times the price is "high" because there is a lot to offer. Often, you get what you pay for. In Detroit, you obviously don't have the same amenities as Toronto along with much worse schools and major safety issues.

While there are some Chinese investors who are somewhat interested in investing in Detroit, it is a huge uphill climb. First, Detroit has a HUGE negative stigma. My GF, who is Chinese told me that every time she mentions Detroit, people in China ask if she has been mugged.. now with the bankruptcy, they talk about false images of dogs running wild on the streets and no cops to police the neighborhoods. While most of this is a little "over the top" this stigma prevents people from migrating to Detroit. Why would they pick Detroit over say Houston, where there are more Asians and a place that is safer.

A lot of the Chinese immigrants to Toronto are the type that do not need employment and they are only moving over to protect their families or shelter their money (mainly because they made their money from somewhat shady means and are afraid of the Chinese government taking their money). These types of investors typically wouldn't go to Detroit just because it is "cheap." Why go somewhere where it is cheap when money isn't a big factor.

Also, without an increase in employers in Detroit, who will buy these houses that the so called investors invested in?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-24-2014, 04:41 PM
 
Location: Grand Rapids Metro
8,882 posts, read 19,766,626 times
Reputation: 3920
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant View Post
To me, this is akin to the difference between whole foods, as a source of vital nutrients, versus vitamins. The idea or concept of vitamins is that one can isolate and extract, from the whole food source, an active nutrient or compound and it will benefit the body. Well, what was later learned is that the extracted compound needs the synergy with the other compounds in the whole food source, to have maximal benefit for the body.

Yes, Detroit could use immigrants, but not through synthetic means. Detroit needs immigrants as part of the whole food source, not as an extract that will somehow nourish Detroit's economy. In other words, the whole food is a solid economy. Immigration growth comes because of a strong economy.... a strong economy is then augmented by immigration growth. Its synergistic and symbiotic. Simply taking the ingredient of of immigration, and attempting to use it as a vitamin to nourish Detroit will not work. Detroit needs the WHOLE FOOD source (Strong Economy), not synthetic substitutes or extracted ingredients of REAL GROWTH as a substitute. Besides, it will just lead to racial animosity and confrontation between the immigrants and the native poor population.
The problem is though that Detroit "metro" has the capacity to be a strong economy. And people can live within an hour's drive of the job centers, which are predominantly in Oakland, Livingston, Macomb Counties right now.

But if you wait around for Detroit city's economy to rebound, you'll never get there. The population losses of 100,000+ a year need to be slowed down and stopped and then reversed. The people that move into Detroit don't need to "work" in Detroit.

Or let me put it this way, you could create 30,000 jobs in the city of Detroit, but people still might choose to live in the burbs and the city will continue to falter.

Or, you can get 30,000 people (international immigrants) to move into the city, who will start their own small businesses or fill job openings in the burbs or wherever, and it will put an influx of cash into property taxes, city income taxes, and other revenue to help get the city solvent again. And the additional residents will help stabilize different neighborhoods that are still doing okay, or move into new projects in emerging areas.

I don't really see the proposal as being a bad idea. Hundreds of millions of Asians and Eastern Europeans are fleeing their countries due to overpopulation, overcrowding, pollution, brutal dictatorships, corruption (way worse than anything we can dream up), slavery, war, abject poverty and other horrible conditions. They're either going to go to Canada or the U.S., or Western Europe. Why not give them incentives to move here to Michigan (Detroit).
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-24-2014, 05:00 PM
 
1,636 posts, read 2,123,950 times
Reputation: 1827
Detroit Future Plan calls for razing miles and miles of neighborhoods and relocating people. Once these areas are depopulated, then educated immigrants can populate the area providing a way for the city to become self-sustainable. The city cannot survive without repopulating it with more educated folks.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-24-2014, 05:21 PM
 
13,806 posts, read 9,637,612 times
Reputation: 5243
Quote:
Originally Posted by magellan View Post
The problem is though that Detroit "metro" has the capacity to be a strong economy. And people can live within an hour's drive of the job centers, which are predominantly in Oakland, Livingston, Macomb Counties right now.

But if you wait around for Detroit city's economy to rebound, you'll never get there. The population losses of 100,000+ a year need to be slowed down and stopped and then reversed. The people that move into Detroit don't need to "work" in Detroit.

Or let me put it this way, you could create 30,000 jobs in the city of Detroit, but people still might choose to live in the burbs and the city will continue to falter.

Or, you can get 30,000 people (international immigrants) to move into the city, who will start their own small businesses or fill job openings in the burbs or wherever, and it will put an influx of cash into property taxes, city income taxes, and other revenue to help get the city solvent again. And the additional residents will help stabilize different neighborhoods that are still doing okay, or move into new projects in emerging areas.

I don't really see the proposal as being a bad idea. Hundreds of millions of Asians and Eastern Europeans are fleeing their countries due to overpopulation, overcrowding, pollution, brutal dictatorships, corruption (way worse than anything we can dream up), slavery, war, abject poverty and other horrible conditions. They're either going to go to Canada or the U.S., or Western Europe. Why not give them incentives to move here to Michigan (Detroit).
But that is what I am talking about. I am talking about a healthy metro area economy. The metro area economy is in poor health.....but the nation as a whole economy is sick as well. However, if you look at most areas with strong job growth the last decade, they also experienced strong immigration growth in the metro area. Low educated immigrants will end up in the city and high educated immigrant generally end up in the suburbs.....but Detroit economy has not been strong enough to attracts immigrants in general, in high numbers. Hispanics are underrepresented in the metro and city population, based upon national numbers. Asians are also underrepresented in the metro, but not by much because their national percentage is already small.

Who will be the customers of the new immigrants starting businesses in Detroit? Were is the extra disposable income going to come from that will support their new businesses without subtracting from patronage of existing businesses? Unless they have export driven businesses, their success can only happen if they steal customers from existing businesses. I do not see the net gain. Its zero sum economics.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-24-2014, 05:31 PM
 
Location: Grand Rapids Metro
8,882 posts, read 19,766,626 times
Reputation: 3920
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant View Post
But that is what I am talking about. I am talking about a healthy metro area economy. The metro area economy is in poor health.....but the nation as a whole economy is sick as well. However, if you look at most areas with strong job growth the last decade, they also experienced strong immigration growth in the metro area. Low educated immigrants will end up in the city and high educated immigrant generally end up in the suburbs.....but Detroit economy has not been strong enough to attracts immigrants in general, in high numbers. Hispanics are underrepresented in the metro and city population, based upon national numbers. Asians are also underrepresented in the metro, but not by much because their national percentage is already small.

Who will be the customers of the new immigrants starting businesses in Detroit? Were is the extra disposable income going to come from that will support their new businesses without subtracting from patronage of existing businesses? Unless they have export driven businesses, their success can only happen if they steal customers from existing businesses. I do not see the net gain. Its zero sum economics.
Did you read the article? What Snyder is proposing to the federal government is making Detroit a special immigration zone for EB-2 visas, making it easier to qualify for them. Much like international trade zones in the U.S. were set up to ease restrictions on foreign owned companies to do business here.

"The proposal involves EB-2 visas, which are offered every year to legal immigrants who have advanced degrees or show exceptional ability in certain fields."

Yahoo! News: Michigan seeks visas to lure immigrants to Detroit

He's aiming for 50,000 of these special visa slots to foreign immigrants.

A couple of interesting statistics in there as well about job creation by foreign immigrants. 50,000 additional residents would be a shot in the arm to the already established retail businesses, even if 500 of those new international residents opened competing retail businesses.

At this point in time, I don't see anything on the horizon to stem the outflux of Detroit residents. The schools aren't getting better, the neighborhoods other than Midtown aren't improving, the financial situation is dire. The only shining spot is downtown, and again, the people working there and enjoying downtown don't have to live in the city to enjoy it. Sink or swim.

No city in the history of mankind has survived a massive exodus of residents organically. It requires incentives, generally government incentives.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-24-2014, 06:08 PM
 
13,806 posts, read 9,637,612 times
Reputation: 5243
Quote:
Originally Posted by magellan View Post
Did you read the article? What Snyder is proposing to the federal government is making Detroit a special immigration zone for EB-2 visas, making it easier to qualify for them. Much like international trade zones in the U.S. were set up to ease restrictions on foreign owned companies to do business here.

"The proposal involves EB-2 visas, which are offered every year to legal immigrants who have advanced degrees or show exceptional ability in certain fields."

Yahoo! News: Michigan seeks visas to lure immigrants to Detroit

He's aiming for 50,000 of these special visa slots to foreign immigrants.

A couple of interesting statistics in there as well about job creation by foreign immigrants. 50,000 additional residents would be a shot in the arm to the already established retail businesses, even if 500 of those new international residents opened competing retail businesses.

At this point in time, I don't see anything on the horizon to stem the outflux of Detroit residents. The schools aren't getting better, the neighborhoods other than Midtown aren't improving, the financial situation is dire. The only shining spot is downtown, and again, the people working there and enjoying downtown don't have to live in the city to enjoy it. Sink or swim.

No city in the history of mankind has survived a massive exodus of residents organically. It requires incentives, generally government incentives.
Well....I see the exodus of the last decade to have been rooted in the housing bubble and liar loans and general relaxed lending standards that allowed many in each economic strata to get better homes or homes for the first time. Its important to note that "better homes" often means newer homes and homes tend to get newer from the core outward. Thus, this resulted in a massive shift from the core in many metro areas as some in the inner city moved to inner ring suburbs, while those who were once in the inner ring moved further out into newer and bigger existing homes while people who once lived in those homes built new homes out in exurbia. The shift, however, left a whole in the city because there was not a demographic moving into the city to replace those moving to the suburbs. Along with that, for a long period of time Michigan was in a recession while the rest of the country was doing fine, and some areas like the South East were booming. This led to many people in the city leaving the state. Now, many of those magnet areas that attracted many Detroiters have economies today that are not too much better than Michigan's. Thus, I do not see the same loss of population as happened the last decade....and I do not even believe that the loss last decade was a quarter of a million.

In regards to immigrants, did those immigrants create jobs in stagnate economic areas like Detroit? I would like to see evidence of immigrants turning around a stagnant economic base and creating thousands of jobs. Besides that, what about the remittances? The money many immigrants make get sent back to their native lands and thus do not circulate in the local economy to help stimulate economic activity.

Another interesting thing is that I hear section 8 housing vouchers are being given to many people.....even men, for the first time. However, where they get to live is controlled by the state and many are being directed to the suburbs.....I have been told. I have heard that such was true in other cities in the state and country as well.

Really, I STRONGLY, STRONGLY believe that the core cities of this nation ARE THE FUTURE places to be. That includes Detroit. However, in places with deep ghettos innovative means will be used to displace them from the cities. The suburbs will become more and more the area for the poor.

Last edited by Indentured Servant; 01-24-2014 at 06:31 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-24-2014, 06:44 PM
 
104 posts, read 240,508 times
Reputation: 116
Was he talking about the city proper? The article is sort of vague. If not restricted to the city proper, what is to keep these immigrants from living/working primarily in the suburbs? If restricted, is 50,000 high-skill jobs in the city a practical goal? Maybe there would be opportunities to mix and match, say, a requirement for city residence yet employable across the region? Or vice versa?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Settings
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2020 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Michigan

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top