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Old 02-23-2014, 01:08 PM
 
Location: Michigan
4,647 posts, read 8,549,982 times
Reputation: 3775

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bhaalspawn View Post
When judging population, you can't just consider whether or not we have the ability to cram people into multistory housing and dense cities. You also need to consider the environmental and resource-use "footprint" that each person has. The amount of space and land that each person needs to maintain a decent standard of living is much larger than the size of their house or apartment.
Consumption is an American trait and not something inherently associated with crowded cities. In many other industrialized countries, people seem to live on a lot less and seem entirely more happy.

Does every American really need his own car just to say he has one?
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Old 02-23-2014, 01:11 PM
 
Location: Grand Rapids Metro
8,882 posts, read 19,779,462 times
Reputation: 3920
Quote:
Originally Posted by animatedmartian View Post
They use the Detroit-Livonia-Dearborn, MI Metropolitan Division which really is just Wayne County. Technically, that's not inaccurate information.

It's sort of misleading because most people think of Metro Detroit as the tri-county area. The information represented then would be of the Detroit-Warren-Livonia, MI Metropolitan statistical area.

However, I would question at why they use the MSA for Indianapolis but not the MSA for Detroit. It seems like for all the cities on that list, they use the MSA for the smaller cities and the metro divisions for the larger cities in order to make the cities look closer in size which seems only to serve to make the smaller cities look more competitive than they actually are. So yea, that's kind of an iffy list.
There is no definition out there that puts the population of the Detroit Metro area at 1.7 Million or the GMP at $70 Billion. I almost feel like Forbes is making it up. You'd have to manually take the population of the city of Detroit and add a couple of other nearby cities? I don't even know how you'd get to that number.

The most recent population of the Detroit - Livonia - Warren MSA per the Census Bureau in 2012 was 4.287 Million. You could easily bump that up larger if you added in all of the Northern and Western suburbs that we all know and love as the Detroit metro area, but let's stick with the Federal Government's definition and leave it at 4.287 Million.

The Gross Metro Product is $200 Billion+, not $70 Billion. Grand Rapids is about $45 Billion, and I can guarantee that Detroit is at least 5 times the economy that GR is.

I'm sending an email to the guy at Forbes who oversees that section, which appears to be Kurt Badenhausen. Just need to track down his email, which shouldn't be that hard to do.

Kurt Badenhausen - Jock Rich - Forbes
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Old 02-23-2014, 02:33 PM
 
Location: Michigan
4,647 posts, read 8,549,982 times
Reputation: 3775
Quote:
Originally Posted by magellan View Post
There is no definition out there that puts the population of the Detroit Metro area at 1.7 Million or the GMP at $70 Billion. I almost feel like Forbes is making it up. You'd have to manually take the population of the city of Detroit and add a couple of other nearby cities? I don't even know how you'd get to that number.
You get those numbers by using metropolitan divisions.

Metropolitan and NECTA Divisions

(huge map warning) http://www2.census.gov/geo/maps/metr...sa_us_1209.pdf

However...

Quote:
Metropolitan Divisions subdivide a Metropolitan Statistical Area containing a single core urban area that has a population of at least 2.5 million to form smaller groupings of counties or equivalent entities. Not all Metropolitan Statistical Areas with urban areas of this size will contain Metropolitan Divisions. Metropolitan Division are defined by the Office of Management and Budget (OMB) and consist of one or more main counties or equivalent entities that represent an employment center or centers, plus adjacent counties associated with the main county or counties through commuting ties. Because Metropolitan Divisions represent subdivisions of larger Metropolitan Statistical Areas, it is not appropriate to rank or compare Metropolitan Divisions with Metropolitan and Micropolitan Statistical Areas. The Metropolitan Divisions for the 2010 Census are those defined by OMB and published in December 2009.
So either way, it's Forbes mistake to compare metropolitan divisions with whole metropolitan areas.
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Old 02-23-2014, 04:56 PM
 
317 posts, read 744,142 times
Reputation: 380
Quote:
Originally Posted by RIVERSMVP14 View Post
weli not saying crowd the state but a smal increase would increase roads budgets.
More people more cars, so much for the road budgets. Besides the politicians will find a way to spend it on anything but the roads!
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Old 02-23-2014, 06:17 PM
 
1,636 posts, read 2,126,098 times
Reputation: 1827
I think western Michigan may be the key to success for Michigan and I live in Metro Detroit. Grand Rapids is a city which has a lot of assets. The bottom line is that political leaders need to realize that people want to live in dynamic pedestrian friendly vibrant downtowns. If I could change a few things regarding Grand Rapids, I think that it could really take off.

1) The 131 freeway should be rerouted to not go through and divide downtown Grand Rapids. It should be rerouted along the Plaster River.

2) A new train station should be built next to the YMCA building close to downtown. The rail lines already go next to it. A train station in the heart of downtown for passenger unloading would be great.

3) Street cars throughout Grand Rapids

4) Consolidating Grand Rapids, Grand Rapids Township, East Grand Rapids, Grandville, Walker, Kentwood, Wyoming, Comstock Park, Byron Center, Forest Hills, Culterville, and Northview into one city. 220 square miles (2 square miles smaller than Columbus, Ohio) with a population of 450,000 people. This would have a psychological effect on the residents of the city, the state, the region, and the country.

5) 2 professional sports teams. It does a great deal for advertising of a city. Look at Green Bay and then look at Hampton Roads which is almost forgotten. My theory is that it has to do with sports team and city recognition.

6) Try hard to attract a minimum of 2 Fortune 500 companies to Grand Rapids

7) Build lightrail from downtown Grand Rapids to all of its pedestrian satellite cities. This will give shape to future urban development. It would bolster Grand Rapids' downtown as well as encourage density around the cities around GR. For instance, there are already rail lines which could possibly be used or lines built next to them. Imagine four lines:
Line 1) Muskegon, Fruitport, Coopersville, Marne, Walker, Dowtown Grand Rapids, Ada, Lowell, and Ionia.
Line 2) Sparta, Comstock Park, Downtown Grand Rapids, Wyoming, Grandville, Georgetown, Hudsonville, Zeeland, and Holland
Line 3) Airport to Downtown
Line 4) Kalamazoo, Plainfield, Martin, Wayland, Culterville, Downtown Grand Rapids.

(ALL OF THESE LINES EXIST ALREADY except the Muskegon-Grand Rapids Line which is a trail now) I am unsure if the same lines that Amtrak uses could be shared for passenger light rail.
Then build a line from Stanton to Greenville to Belding to Rockford to Plainfield

8)Encourage more highrise housing downtown

9) Build a unique monument/structure....

10) A University of Michigan-Grand Rapids. However built in the downtown area and not a closed off campus.

Just some ideas...But the money??? Actually, some ideas I have have been proposed such as rerouting the 131 freeway, and just two weeks ago there was a study funded for street cars. I think that light rail will be advantageous to the region's future growth and make the metropolitan area very dynamic with having a host of pedestrian downtowns connected by a metro system...Just some ideas in my head...In short, it is important to have a city with shopping, cultural institutions, dining, safety, denisty, and easy public transportation. Also, a big city feel provides an incentive for the majority of urban professionals to want to live somewhere. Ok now go balistic on me...lol

Last edited by Republic of Michigan; 02-23-2014 at 06:26 PM..
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Old 02-23-2014, 09:50 PM
 
7 posts, read 8,579 times
Reputation: 14
People are leaving Michigan because of the fact that the disease called unionism has created a festering sore called Detroit. I am sure most people of Michigan are not union thugs, but from where I am from Michigan=Detroit. Good luck getting people to move there!
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Old 02-24-2014, 10:27 AM
 
Location: Grand Rapids Metro
8,882 posts, read 19,779,462 times
Reputation: 3920
Quote:
Originally Posted by Republic of Michigan View Post
I think western Michigan may be the key to success for Michigan and I live in Metro Detroit. Grand Rapids is a city which has a lot of assets. The bottom line is that political leaders need to realize that people want to live in dynamic pedestrian friendly vibrant downtowns. If I could change a few things regarding Grand Rapids, I think that it could really take off.

1) The 131 freeway should be rerouted to not go through and divide downtown Grand Rapids. It should be rerouted along the Plaster River.

2) A new train station should be built next to the YMCA building close to downtown. The rail lines already go next to it. A train station in the heart of downtown for passenger unloading would be great.

3) Street cars throughout Grand Rapids

4) Consolidating Grand Rapids, Grand Rapids Township, East Grand Rapids, Grandville, Walker, Kentwood, Wyoming, Comstock Park, Byron Center, Forest Hills, Culterville, and Northview into one city. 220 square miles (2 square miles smaller than Columbus, Ohio) with a population of 450,000 people. This would have a psychological effect on the residents of the city, the state, the region, and the country.

5) 2 professional sports teams. It does a great deal for advertising of a city. Look at Green Bay and then look at Hampton Roads which is almost forgotten. My theory is that it has to do with sports team and city recognition.

6) Try hard to attract a minimum of 2 Fortune 500 companies to Grand Rapids

7) Build lightrail from downtown Grand Rapids to all of its pedestrian satellite cities. This will give shape to future urban development. It would bolster Grand Rapids' downtown as well as encourage density around the cities around GR. For instance, there are already rail lines which could possibly be used or lines built next to them. Imagine four lines:
Line 1) Muskegon, Fruitport, Coopersville, Marne, Walker, Dowtown Grand Rapids, Ada, Lowell, and Ionia.
Line 2) Sparta, Comstock Park, Downtown Grand Rapids, Wyoming, Grandville, Georgetown, Hudsonville, Zeeland, and Holland
Line 3) Airport to Downtown
Line 4) Kalamazoo, Plainfield, Martin, Wayland, Culterville, Downtown Grand Rapids.

(ALL OF THESE LINES EXIST ALREADY except the Muskegon-Grand Rapids Line which is a trail now) I am unsure if the same lines that Amtrak uses could be shared for passenger light rail.
Then build a line from Stanton to Greenville to Belding to Rockford to Plainfield

8)Encourage more highrise housing downtown

9) Build a unique monument/structure....

10) A University of Michigan-Grand Rapids. However built in the downtown area and not a closed off campus.

Just some ideas...But the money??? Actually, some ideas I have have been proposed such as rerouting the 131 freeway, and just two weeks ago there was a study funded for street cars. I think that light rail will be advantageous to the region's future growth and make the metropolitan area very dynamic with having a host of pedestrian downtowns connected by a metro system...Just some ideas in my head...In short, it is important to have a city with shopping, cultural institutions, dining, safety, denisty, and easy public transportation. Also, a big city feel provides an incentive for the majority of urban professionals to want to live somewhere. Ok now go balistic on me...lol
A lot of these ideas get bandied about over here.

The one that jumped out to me was your University of Michigan - Grand Rapids campus. Michigan State University Medical School is set to make a huge investment in downtown Grand Rapids (in addition to being headquartered in their new campus downtown) along Michigan Street and along the riverfront North of 196. They acquired I believe 16 acres total of land that was previously owned by the Grand Rapids Press, and are in process of building the first piece which will be a biotech research facility, one of the only of its kind in the State (from what I hear). GVSU just bought 18 acres of land North of 196 to expand their health campus, Van Andel Institute now owns almost an entire block along North Division, and Spectrum is scouting out acreage East of downtown along Michigan Street. All told I think it's about 50 acres expansions in the works between the 4 organizations.

It would be quite a feat for UofM to catch up to that now, with land downtown being snatched up so heavily lately. They'd have to partner with another higher ed institution at this point to get any kind of traction downtown, in my humble opinion.

Something's about to break with all of this, but no one really knows which will be the first development project.

I don't disagree that Grand Rapids is definitely on a huge upswing right now, which helps Michigan's image. But make no mistake that Detroit's economy is the only thing that can grow Michigan exponentially. Besides, most of us Grand Rapidians don't want to live in a 4 Million person metro. 1.5 Million would be grand.

GVSU board approves expansion for health campus - GVNow - Grand Valley State University
A new MSU research building in Grand Rapids would boost city, medical school, dean says | MLive.com
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Old 02-24-2014, 11:44 AM
 
2 posts, read 3,249 times
Reputation: 10
As an outsider moving to MI - it was not my first choice.

When I think of Michigan I see taxes are high, crime is high (where I am working), the state is in decline, and the winters are cruel.

I am moving from Texas where taxes are low and the weather is wonderful (summers are a little rough) and the economy is booming and Texas is on the rise.

But the job was right in the end so here we come. If you want people not committed to Michigan to be interested, I think serious reforms would have to be made to make the weather palatable. The west coast and many east coast places have a weather comparative advantage that makes high taxes/regulation less of a big deal. But why anyone moves to cold states that have high taxes is a mystery - or they could be like me - no better job. But I will be looking to leave the day I arrive. Who needs winters like that and high taxes when so many states have lower taxes and nicer weather where you can enjoy the beautiful outdoors more months of the year.
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Old 02-24-2014, 12:32 PM
 
4,861 posts, read 9,261,558 times
Reputation: 7761
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbobb23 View Post
As an outsider moving to MI - it was not my first choice.

When I think of Michigan I see taxes are high, crime is high (where I am working), the state is in decline, and the winters are cruel.

I am moving from Texas where taxes are low and the weather is wonderful (summers are a little rough) and the economy is booming and Texas is on the rise.

But the job was right in the end so here we come. If you want people not committed to Michigan to be interested, I think serious reforms would have to be made to make the weather palatable. The west coast and many east coast places have a weather comparative advantage that makes high taxes/regulation less of a big deal. But why anyone moves to cold states that have high taxes is a mystery - or they could be like me - no better job. But I will be looking to leave the day I arrive. Who needs winters like that and high taxes when so many states have lower taxes and nicer weather where you can enjoy the beautiful outdoors more months of the year.
But there are many people who live in states like Michigan who actually enjoy a cold, snowy winter. Skiing, snowmobiling, and other winter sports thrive here. Also, and this remains for you to see, but believe me, we have beautiful weather from roughly April through October, so for at least seven months of the year you can get outside and enjoy the great outdoors without laser beam sun and humidity that feels like a soggy blanket wrapped around your body. Even November has been fairly temperate for the past several years. This winter has been the most extreme winter we have had in literally decades. Two years ago, the temps averaged in the mid-40s in January and we barely got any snow. That has been more the trend lately than this.

I didn't realize that our taxes were so high, they are relatively low in the town where we live. There are northern states with extremely high taxes, New York and Massachusetts come to mind, but Michigan? Really? who'd a thunk it? Crime where I live is negligible too, and we can literally leave our doors unlocked without fear. People are friendly, and you may be surprised to discover how many southern transplants and their offspring live here too.

I hate to see you move to Michigan with such a negative attitude already in place. I hope that once you get here you will begin to see why so many of us find it a great place to live and that you will venture outside of the area where you will be working, especially if it is a high crime area, although if we're being fair, all states and all cities have a fair amount of crime in certain areas, so that isn't anything that is specific to Michigan. There are some gorgeous places in this state that will surprise you, especially if you are coming here thinking only of cold weather and crime.

Welcome to Big Mitten Up North!!!! If you ever need advice or opinions, the people on this forum are very nice and ready to help!
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Old 02-24-2014, 02:44 PM
 
8,540 posts, read 12,281,888 times
Reputation: 16442
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbobb23 View Post
But I will be looking to leave the day I arrive.
Enjoy your stay...but I truly hope you're successful. Everyone has their own likes and dislikes. I wouldn't live in Texas if you paid me.
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