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I agree with mgkeith and will deliberately ignore all future MSNBC-sponsored posts by detwahDJ.
This is my take on the issue:
We need to do a better job as a country of making it easier for people to come here legally. I personally am not familiar with the current process and all the different options (green cards, visas, etc.) for people who want to come here, but obviously there are some flaws in the process. Otherwise, people would not be coming here illegally.
One possible solution would be to set up (more?) offices inside the Mexican border or even in the Central American countries where people can pre-apply to enter the U.S. so that once they get here they either already have the necessary documentation or can readily be given it.
As long as immigrants, legal or illegal, are paying taxes and following all the other laws that Americans have to follow, I really have no problem with them being here. I just don't understand why they are not coming here illegally. They should follow the law like everyone else.
Many people complain that it is not fair that immigrants come here and receive government benefits when they haven't been contributing to the system. But, in fact, most immigrants come here because they want to work. I have more of a problem with Americans who don't have the same work ethic as the immigrants and abuse the welfare system.
These immigrants, legal and illegal, are taking low-paying jobs, many of which pay minimum wage or less. This demand for low wage workers is the direct result of the minimum wage laws and other efforts by the liberals. If the immigrants didn't take these jobs, employers would have to raise wages to attract American workers. So, it's ironic that the party that claims to be for the low-paid American workers supports efforts to keep those workers low paid.
We need to go after people that employ illegal immigrants. Offer a reward to anyone who reports an employer that hires illegal immigrants, including illegal immigrants. For example, we could make the penalty $1000 for the employer's first offense and the reward $500 for the person who reports them.
Building fences and hiring more border patrol are not the best solutions in my opinion. The money should be used for such things as mentioned in #2 and 6.
Those that do come here illegally should not be kept here and housed, fed, given medical treatment, etc. They should be sent back immediately. The facilities that we are housing them in are way better than the living conditions in their own country. So we are actually rewarding them for being here illegally. It's counter-productive.
We need to be more present in the countries these immigrants are coming from. Along with #2, we should have commercials and billboards in those countries either discouraging them from coming here and/or explaining to them the correct process. We also need to put pressure on the governments to discourage the emigration from their countries and/or to improve the conditions in those countries to discourage emigration.
Obama needs to admit that he was largely responsible for this fiasco. He should start standing up for America instead of trying to recruit future Democrat voters.
That's just a few thoughts off the top of my head. Like I said, I will do my best to refrain from responding to detwahDJ's ridiculous attempts at self-righteousness. Just to be clear, my lack of response in no way is an admission on my part that he has made a valid argument.
It turns into a matter of personal blasting; ie. this individual gunning for that one. The central issue almost seems to become irrelevant, and in this case it is a pitiful way to handle an important issue. In other words...it seems to turn into a pi**ing contest, and little more.
Part of the forum experience is responding directly to other participants. That's just the way it is. You think it's just about presenting one's own ideas without confronting other people's statements and views? It is not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Retroit
I agree with mgkeith and will deliberately ignore all future MSNBC-sponsored posts by detwahDJ.
This is my take on the issue:
We need to do a better job as a country of making it easier for people to come here legally. I personally am not familiar with the current process and all the different options (green cards, visas, etc.) for people who want to come here, but obviously there are some flaws in the process. Otherwise, people would not be coming here illegally.
One possible solution would be to set up (more?) offices inside the Mexican border or even in the Central American countries where people can pre-apply to enter the U.S. so that once they get here they either already have the necessary documentation or can readily be given it.
As long as immigrants, legal or illegal, are paying taxes and following all the other laws that Americans have to follow, I really have no problem with them being here. I just don't understand why they are not coming here illegally. They should follow the law like everyone else.
Many people complain that it is not fair that immigrants come here and receive government benefits when they haven't been contributing to the system. But, in fact, most immigrants come here because they want to work. I have more of a problem with Americans who don't have the same work ethic as the immigrants and abuse the welfare system.
These immigrants, legal and illegal, are taking low-paying jobs, many of which pay minimum wage or less. This demand for low wage workers is the direct result of the minimum wage laws and other efforts by the liberals. If the immigrants didn't take these jobs, employers would have to raise wages to attract American workers. So, it's ironic that the party that claims to be for the low-paid American workers supports efforts to keep those workers low paid.
We need to go after people that employ illegal immigrants. Offer a reward to anyone who reports an employer that hires illegal immigrants, including illegal immigrants. For example, we could make the penalty $1000 for the employer's first offense and the reward $500 for the person who reports them.
Building fences and hiring more border patrol are not the best solutions in my opinion. The money should be used for such things as mentioned in #2 and 6.
Those that do come here illegally should not be kept here and housed, fed, given medical treatment, etc. They should be sent back immediately. The facilities that we are housing them in are way better than the living conditions in their own country. So we are actually rewarding them for being here illegally. It's counter-productive.
We need to be more present in the countries these immigrants are coming from. Along with #2, we should have commercials and billboards in those countries either discouraging them from coming here and/or explaining to them the correct process. We also need to put pressure on the governments to discourage the emigration from their countries and/or to improve the conditions in those countries to discourage emigration.
Obama needs to admit that he was largely responsible for this fiasco. He should start standing up for America instead of trying to recruit future Democrat voters.
That's just a few thoughts off the top of my head. Like I said, I will do my best to refrain from responding to detwahDJ's ridiculous attempts at self-righteousness. Just to be clear, my lack of response in no way is an admission on my part that he has made a valid argument.
You are bailing out imo. I will respond this way - with more data.
Again you focus blame on Obama without a mention of anyone else, when previous administrations have done zilch - nor has your current six-year Congress - and they just left on vacation without acting. You think Congress suddenly has no part in governing and no responsibility to act on issues such as this? Jim Hightower | The damning nuttiness of the GOP's "hell no" faction
Meaty excerpts concerning this issue:
** "Having howled about a host of huge issues – including the humanitarian crisis of immigrant children crossing the US-Mexico border and the growing crisis of our nation's crumbling infrastructure – Congress did nothing, then bolted off the job."
This is John Boehner's Congress abandoning the issue and bolting for vacation.
Congressional repubs and Faux media complain loudly about Obama acting unilaterally and issuing executive orders, then: ** "And three, as they departed for vacation, howling House leaders said that, in their absence, Obama should deport the suffering, terrorized migrant children who fled to the US this summer. Incredibly, they demanded that – get this – the president should act unilaterally, by issuing an executive order."
Now, doesn't this seem aimed at taking Congress off the hook for doing anything?
This is on-the-record fact. The real issue - there should have been action long ago, but as I said, there is profit involved in maintaining the status quo.
Now mgkeith, if you consider this backbiting or a personal attack, then so be it.
I could scour the internet for articles which point out all the faults of the
Democrats, but I don't think that is what these internet forums should be about.
They should be about us (forum members) sharing our own views. Now, it is
true, I have frequently injected a politically biased comment here and there, but it was
only as an aside. If you want to discuss Washington politics, go to the
Political forum. There is actually an Immigration sub-forum in the Political
section.
I will also concede that the Republican Party is not perfect. I only side
with them because I agree with them more often than I do the Democrats, but not
100%.
You point out how the Republicans have left town, but you neglect to note
that Obama frequently leaves town. You also neglect to note that Democrats have
failed to come up with a viable solution to the problem.
If you have any opinions on how you think the problem should be
solved, you should state them. Or do you think we should just open our borders
and let anyone come in?
Sorry for not ignoring his posts, but I still have hope for the guy. I hate to see him continually make a fool of himself.
Maybe if children were killed in Detroit at the same rate they are murdered in Central America the tunnel-vision ultra conservatives would recognize upheaval and war like conditions exist outside an organized colonizing army.
As it is now, many people refer to Detroit as the WILD WEST aka WAR ZONE...
With all due respect and I mean that sincerely and with an authentic reverence concerning this subject matter. In regards to children being killed it should be noted that your comparison is only one violent city in America compared to an entire region...notably, Central America. Please, if we are going to make an equal observation let us be fair in our geographical and population examples.
Living in the Chicago metro area I believe that Detroit is a highly targeted representation of the entire country's ills and certainly not in a league of its own; to wit, Chicago's own personal version of a 'war zone'. I could seriously and literally go on for a country mile but I think I make my point (and hopefully you really understand this is a message and not an assault or disregard of children in any other part of the world).
State troopers, FBI to help fight gang violence in Chicago
Starting Thursday, 40 Illinois State Troopers will join local police in an intensified search for gang members wanted on murder warrants. Additionally, the FBI is sending 65 more agents to the city’s high-crime neighborhoods. They will work with Chicago police officers — mostly on Thursdays and Fridays — to prevent street violence.
We (collectively speaking and in my humble opinion), in America, should be addressing immediately the violence and murder of children in OUR country first before we blindly offer to throw money at a problem outside our own borders. Make no mistake about it I too am saddened by the plight of these children, but I am overwhelmed every single day when I take in the local as well as national news concerning our very own homegrown violence and murder of innocent children.
To be sure there are a great many situations where it can be said that it is a problem attributed to gang violence here in America "from sea to shining sea" which I believe cannot be differentiated than the highly equipped and well armed marauders elsewhere around the globe as a matter of fact.
When America wants to help/offer assistance (intervene) in other countries 'we' send arms, air strikes, and 'support' for a specific side (which can certainly change at will according to any given agenda in any particular decade).
Nearly 10,000 American children are injured or killed by guns every year
Since 1968, "more Americans have died from gunfire than died in...all the wars of this country's history." (True) We tallied about 1.4 million firearm deaths compared with 1.2 million in war. The number of gunfire deaths includes suicides.
The lifetime medical cost for all gun violence victims in the United States is estimated at $2.3 billion, with almost half the costs borne by taxpayers.
With all due respect and I mean that sincerely and with an authentic reverence concerning this subject matter. In regards to children being killed it should be noted that your comparison is only one violent city in America compared to an entire region...notably, Central America. Please, if we are going to make an equal observation let us be fair in our geographical and population examples.
I believe I was quoted as saying "at the same rate."
This qualifier denotes that it is a percentage or ratio and not a universal absolute. So I can compare areas that are different in size and population while using the per capital or percentage formula.
So if Central America encompasses a larger area than a war-torn area like Detroit, there is still logic ic drawing a comparison in "the same rate" per person within that specific age group.
So yes, IF the children (age 5-17) were being murdered at the same rate as they are in Central America, then we here in America (Michigan) may have a bit more compassion and understanding to recgnize the children as REFUGEES and not ILLEGAL--NO PERSON IS ILLEGAL...
I believe I was quoted as saying "at the same rate."
This qualifier denotes that it is a percentage or ratio and not a universal absolute. So I can compare areas that are different in size and population while using the per capital or percentage formula.
So if Central America encompasses a larger area than a war-torn area like Detroit, there is still logic ic drawing a comparison in "the same rate" per person within that specific age group.
So yes, IF the children (age 5-17) were being murdered at the same rate as they are in Central America, then we here in America (Michigan) may have a bit more compassion and understanding to recgnize the children as REFUGEES and not ILLEGAL--NO PERSON IS ILLEGAL...
I believe I was quoted as saying "at the same rate."
This qualifier denotes that it is a percentage or ratio and not a universal absolute. So I can compare areas that are different in size and population while using the per capital or percentage formula.
"At the same rate", the city of Detroit versus the violent crimes data of Central America? That's one hell of a qualifier, don't you think? "Not a universal absolute", that's convenient; what do you think? Never mind, I already know what you 'think'.
So if Central America encompasses a larger area than a war-torn area like Detroit, there is still logic ic drawing a comparison in "the same rate" per person within that specific age group.
So, what you're saying is, according to your 'logic', you're only going to be concerned with comparing Detroit to Central America. What happened to the logic of the rest of America which encompasses that same specific age group, they just became healed and 'saved'? Where are the fine citizens of the State of Michigan for it's very own home grown 'refugees' of 'war torn' Detroit and other 'war torn' metro areas in America?
So yes, IF the children (age 5-17) were being murdered at the same rate as they are in Central America, then we here in America (Michigan) may have a bit more compassion and understanding to recgnize the children as REFUGEES and not ILLEGAL--NO PERSON IS ILLEGAL...
Out of the entire post this is the counter that you're basing the merits for rescuing the children of Central America? Please no need to reply/respond back to my post as I know exactly from where your sympathy, empathy, compassion, and understanding comes from.
I might add, that certainly the State of Michigan (as well as any other state in these United States) can certainly decide what course they will take to show 'compassion and understanding' to the plight of any particular group of people, regardless of their age or designation but I am very certain that it is not the State of Michigan in and of itself which will be paying for the enormous expenses involved in housing, education, medical care, and other assorted miscellaneous expense which will be incurred but rather the Federal government, e.g., the taxpayers of the entire United States. I'm quite certain that your group will not be conducting a bake sale to raise the capitol for such an endeavor...correct me if I am wrong in this regard.
The term "illegal alien" is predicated upon U.S. immigration law which requires foreigners entering the U.S. to comply with our country's rules and laws regarding entry into, and residence within, our country.
It appears however that the term 'ILLEGAL ALIEN' has recently fallen out of favor for more politically correct terminology so as not to offend the delicate sensibilities of the population of other countries which fit at 100% the definition of an 'ILLEGAL ALIEN'. First 'we' were informed that the appropriate terminology was 'UNDOCUMENTED ALIEN' and now we have completely and ALMOST come full circle to where it will eventually end up...'REFUGEE' and in no time at all, CITIZEN of the United States of America, complete with all benefits, amenities, and of course...entitlements.
And just an FYI for all those who will jump up and down, point their fingers, and accuse...racist; NO, I don't care if the children are from Norway, Sweden, Germany, Spain, Portugal, the UK, or Africa (to name just a few), illegal is illegal regardless of the country of origin!
However, I will give credit where credit is due...how very clever to send the 'children' of these 'war torn' countries to invade our shores. Have we done the same for 'children' all over this globe for the various children of 'war torn' countries? I think not!
Perhaps we should consider sending our American homegrown 'refugees' of our 'war torn' cities abroad and see how well they will be received and 'who' will actually take them in to feed, clothe, educate, etc.
I could scour the internet for articles which point out all the faults of the
Democrats, but I don't think that is what these internet forums should be about. They should be about us (forum members) sharing our own views. Now, it is
true, I have frequently injected a politically biased comment here and there, but it was
only as an aside. If you want to discuss Washington politics, go to the Political forum. There is actually an Immigration sub-forum in the Political
section.
I will also concede that the Republican Party is not perfect. I only side
with them because I agree with them more often than I do the Democrats, but not
100%.
You point out how the Republicans have left town, but you neglect to note
that Obama frequently leaves town. You also neglect to note that Democrats have failed to come up with a viable solution to the problem.
If you have any opinions on how you think the problem should be
solved, you should state them. Or do you think we should just open our borders
and let anyone come in?
Sorry for not ignoring his posts, but I still have hope for the guy. I hate to see him continually make a fool of himself.
About the bolded above (which you for some reason wish to hide) - you are wrong. In your mind no data or other references should ever be presented? Seriously? Posting is not just about one's own opinion - possibly based on nothing more than hate and fear, and topics like this are a prime example. Are you also the forum police now?
In your sphere, Democrats have had no "viable" solution? You simply mean "no program which the far Right will accept" - because they are fractured and many want no "viable" solution under Obama. The teabagger faction wants expulsion of as many brown folk as possible while the corporate faction likes the dirt-cheap labor. Do not use terms like "viable" when you mean "what you or the far Right doesn't like".
Meaty excerpt: "A bipartisan coalition of senators passed a reform bill last June that would extend an earned path to citizenship to some undocumented immigrants, throw considerably more security resources at the border, and strengthen domestic enforcement of immigration laws. House Republican leaders refused to take up the Senate bill, and though some smaller bills targeting border security and visas for skilled workers have passed through the House Judiciary Committee, nothing has reached the House floor. GOP leaders tried earlier this year to rally their caucus around a bill that would confer citizenship on those who have served in the military, but even that proved too heavy a lift for the fractious Republican conference."
Here it is: the far right faction wants no "earned path to citizenship" - period.
So in the Fox bubble dems have done nothing, and it is repubs who, due to their compassion and concern over this issue, have done all the heavy lifting. Obama has been meeting with Central American leaders, yet, according to blurbs in the corporate media, Obama is not "cooperating" with Congress - right.
IMO this is a refugee problem, and they should be treated as such. Here are opinions from the Fox bubble - yes, one protester says Obama is "flooding the country with illegals, even Muslims, on purpose".
I am of very mixed feelings about the situation. Certainly I like the idea of helping out all people who are suffering. I do want to point out that it takes an awful lot of assistance to help people out when they are new to our country, and much, much more when they are uneducated,functionally illiterate, and don't speak English. Historically, families have helped each other out...established Americans helping relatives from the old country. If they didn't have this assistance--they suffered some more. Having had some direct experience with the immigrant population myself, I say that a whole lot of money will have to materialize from somewhere to help these people out. And it's not just the money, but networks will need to be developed to handle people's needs in an orderly manner. It would be a massive undertaking! And apparently we aren't just discussing the folks from Central America, right?
I am of very mixed feelings about the situation. Certainly I like the idea of helping out all people who are suffering. I do want to point out that it takes an awful lot of assistance to help people out when they are new to our country, and much, much more when they are uneducated,functionally illiterate, and don't speak English. Historically, families have helped each other out...established Americans helping relatives from the old country. If they didn't have this assistance--they suffered some more. Having had some direct experience with the immigrant population myself, I say that a whole lot of money will have to materialize from somewhere to help these people out. And it's not just the money, but networks will need to be developed to handle people's needs in an orderly manner. It would be a massive undertaking! And apparently we aren't just discussing the folks from Central America, right?
IMO you sound fair-minded and not a RW whack. Everybody has mixed feelings, but this problem has been back-burnered for decades and multiple administrations have looked the other way.
Congress should have previously acted for the country's "general welfare" clause of the Constitution and not for the interests of their donors, sponsors, or their own careers (as future lobbyists for instance), but for many, this particular issue has been "out of sight, out of mind" - even for those righties now complaining loudly.
IMO we need controlled, not closed, borders coupled with reforms which include paths to citizenship for un-documenteds already here because congressional inaction has allowed the situation to fester. As I noted earlier, reform bills have garnered bipartisan support in Congress, but were sabotaged. Refugees from anywhere, but especially troubled countries, should not be a surprise and we should have a special process geared to handling that issue.
A strange situation for instance, senate rules allow a single filibustering senator, with nothing but a phone call, to bring legislative action which he or his donors might not like, to a halt. Gridlock anyone? Various special-interest congressional factions are presently opposed to each other, thus more inaction.
Campaign finance reform (public finance) and getting money out of politics will make our representatives beholden to the people instead of narrow-agenda well-heeled donors. Presently, a wealthy "sponsor" can make or break the political career of an otherwise well-meaning representative who must also "dial for dollars" on a daily basis - a system of "governance" which many on both sides don't like. Following, a link to a partial solution. https://movetoamend.org/
Last edited by detwahDJ; 08-14-2014 at 03:42 PM..
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Posting is not just about one's own opinion - possibly based on nothing more than hate and fear, and topics like this are a prime example. Are you also the forum police now? 
