Universities (Detroit, Ann Arbor, Wayne: environment, apartment, hotel)

[Cato the Elder]

Yeah, and Cal Tech was once ranked as the top overall national university IN THE NATION by the same magazine - above Princeton, Harvard, Yale, etc. What happened to it in subsequent years? A cataclysmic disaster? There must have been a major catastrophe as Cal Tech hasn't sniffed the top 3 since. I hope the English majors who matriculated there because it was "#1" enjoyed their experience, LMAO!

If you want to pick a specific major or even an university by looking at relatively random, and controversial, ranking system by a popular magazine, by all means do so. But how will you feel if the following year after matriculating if your #2 or #3 program is all of a sudden ranked #8? Overall, these rankings don't change the fact that Illinois is the best engineering school in the Midwest. Walk around the engineering campus at MI or Northwestern or Purdue or Illinois. Check out the facilities, talk to people about what they're doing and the history of the institution. Why are there five Georgia Tech, Illinois, MIT or Cal Tech grads at the Jet Propulsion Lab for every Michigan grad? Why is it the same ratio in Silicon Valley? Why does Microsoft scout out Illinois and Waterloo exclusively in mid-North America for employees? Why is it that Illinois is the only Midwestern school funded to the hilt by the govenment to do AI research? Etc., etc., etc.

Like I said, Michigan is a wonderful school, but check out the facts to see what's right for you as an individual. If your goal is to get a great overall education and have a great brand name backing you, go to Harvard or Michigan. Get a job at Grainger (founded by an Illinois grad, BTW) or Haliburton, buy that house with the white picket fence, have your 2.5 kids, and live happily ever. If you want the most elite engineering experience and have the brains to back it, go to MIT, Berkeley, Cal Tech, Georgia Tech, or Illinois. FWIW, Stanford is consistently ranked as a top engineering school, but especially if you're talking undergrad, I would put it into the Michigan, Purdue, etc. category, not the elite group I just mentioned.

[xcalgal]

Thanks to everyone for their input so far regarding U of M vs. U of I. I am always open to other people's experiences and wisdom.

[Novanow]

Hi. I moved to Ann Arbor from New York City a few years ago, and am now a grad student at UM. This is a great town, and it's a fabulous university. I teach undergrads (not in engineering, though) and they are smart, lively, and engaged. For a small city, AA has lots of art and music.

Plus, it's UM. Go Blue, and all that. It's really a terrific place to live and go to school.

[Cato the Elder]

One of the previous responses mentions U of M's law school. That is one of the top reasons why my son chose U of M over U of I. His current plan is to complete his engineering degree and then enroll in the law school at U of M.

This is actually a bad move. Most elite schools have an aversion to academic "incest." That's why a "double Harvard" is so celebrated - it's understood that you truly are the best of the best if you got into a Harvard grad program after an undergrad career. It's just a fact that many more undergrads apply to their university's graduate programs at the same time the latter is looking for diversity - two diametrically opposed motives. So if you're a law school admissions officer getting 20 U of M engineers applying for every 1 U of I engineer, who do you think has a better chance on average, all other things equal?

[Cato the Elder]

I will give you one example of what I'm talking about. My brother-in-law graduated with a mechanical engineering BS from U of M with a 3.7-ish GPA. He decided to purse an MBA after working several years and got a top score on the GMAT. He applied and got into Virginia, NYU, and Wharton. Guess where he got wait-listed?

[HotSauce]

xcalgal,

My son has several friends at schools like Harvard, Princeton, Yale, MIT, Duke, U of Penn, Washington U, etc.

But just so you know the kind of student who made the University of Michigan his top choice, ended up going to U of M, and is very glad he made that choice, let me tell you more about that kind of student. :-)

First I want to give God all the glory and my thanks for everything I am able to say below. Without God none of this would be possible!!!

At two years of age my son could read pretty well and understood math concepts like addition, subtraction, and multiplication. While still three years old, he gave his first public piano performance at a large shopping mall. He played 10 little pieces flawlessly. We were so proud of him and happy for him too. He went on to win many awards throughout the years at piano competitions. For kindergarten, first, and second grade he attended a magnet school for the gifted and talented (nothing to do with his musical talent). After that we moved across the state and ended up in a school district that did not have a school for the gifted. But we do have some of the top schools in Michigan. Throughout the rest of grade school and junior high my son was accelerated and pulled out of normal classes to attend special programs for the gifted and talented (e.g., ATYP math, etc.) While in high school he took quite many AP courses and aced most of his AP exams (i.e., got fives - he got 4 on a couple). He completed all of the math courses that his high school had to offer (including AP calc BC), so for 11th and 12th grade he attended a couple different local colleges to continue his math studies. He also attended another university from 10th through 12th grade for piano studies with a Van Cliburn bronze medalist.

School was always really easy for my son. But any of his friends and teachers will tell you that although he may be one of smartest people they've known, he was/is no nerd. Since school was so easy for my son, it left him all kinds of time for his music and for many other activities too. Not only did/does he play piano, he also played violin in his school orchestras, in our city's youth symphony, occasionally in our church orchestra, and both piano and violin his church youth group's band. He was also involved in mock trial, debate, science olympiad, model UN (he won top honors at a model UN competition at U of M while he was in high school), jazz band, etc.

My son and the young lady who ended up going to Harvard were best of friends from third grade through high school. They inspired each other academically throughout the school years. I think she will be the first to tell you that my son helped her and others more often than she did him. They were both voted most likely to succeed by their pretty large high school class. They were at the top of their class all the way from 3rd grade through 12th grade. My son's high school GPA (4.318) was pretty much the same as his friend's. I think her GPA was a fraction higher because she took one more AP class than my son did. I thought it was a little silly, but his high school let him double up a few different classes so he could enjoy more classes (e.g., AP calc and AP US history during the same hour - AP physics and orchestra during the same hour). He just loves learning.

By the way when you get over 4.0 many schools do it differently. Their high school did not inflate the GPA quite as much as some do for AP courses. My son got higher ACT (35) and SAT (2300 or 2350 - forget which) scores than his friend that ended up at Harvard did. He got a perfect score on the math part of the SAT and I think 750 on the other two parts. He also got a perfect score on SAT II math and I think the same on another SAT II (not sure which). My son's high school does not designate a valedictorian. But it would have been either my son or his friend who went to Harvard - depending on whether or not you count ACT and SAT scores. My son is a National Merit Scholar (i.e., not just a finalist).

Their high school chose to give my son the top scholarship over his friend who went to Harvard. He was also awarded the largest number of outside scholarships of any student in his large graduating class. He turned down a full ride scholarship to the honors college at a university in the south west. He also turned down a full ride to a university in Florida - he hadn't even applied to that one - but they offered him a full ride to come there. But with U of M's top engineering scholarship (for four years) and all of his outside scholarships combined he came up just short of a full ride to four years at U of M. Tuition, room and board, books, fees, etc. are mostly covered for four years. We are encouraging him to apply for more scholarships to make up the difference. Even though U of M already considers him a junior because he had 37 credits coming out of high school (from APs and a few dual-enrollment college course), he plans on making full use of the four years worth of scholarships (he wants to minor in math and is still debating on whether or not to apply for their music school in addition to completing an engineering degree). And he wants to experience four full years at U of M as an undergraduate. At least that is what he says now. :-) I tend to agree with him. Why hurry through ones youth? That is exactly why we never moved our son forward a few grades in grade shcool. He definately could have skipped a few years of school without having issues accademically. But both he and we are glad we never did that.

My son lives in a dorm on U of M's main campus rather than on their engineering campus for a few reasons: his research group is based in a dorm on main campus (researching the properties of nanoparticles of gold); and more so because he loves the exchange with students in other disciplines as well as with those in his engineering and math courses and on his research team. I imagine that makes for an enriched college experience. By the way IBM chose U of M and Cornell to work with them on researching the nanoparticles of gold.

As I said before my son's plan after undergrad is to either stay at U of M for law school or maybe apply to Yale's law school. I think with his background and continued performance; he has a pretty good chance of doing just about anything he wants.

But of course all things including my son's future and your son's future are ultimately in God's hands. And I for one believe that God's will and God's ways are far superior to ours.

I told you all of this to let you know what type of student chooses to attend U of M when many other options are available. And to be honest - to show you how proud I am of my son and his choice. And just to let you know, my son would probably be embarrassed that I said all of this. But you don't know who he is. So I think that is ok. He has never been one to brag. All of his grade school, middle school, and high school teachers have always told us that even though my son is so far beyond the other students intellectually and academically, he fits right in, he helps and encourages other students, and he even is known to help his teachers on occasion.

In the end there is a whole lot more to college than just engineering - just as there is in life.

[prestonMI]

My son is trying to decide between University of Michigan and University of Illinois (aerospace engineering). Being from the west coast, he only has had a weekend at each school. Both schools rate pretty high for engineering, so I guess that I am seeking information on the intangibles that you don't get in the US News report. Any thoughts?

Hands down U of M. It consistently ranks among the top 5 in engineering. On top of that it's considered one of the best schools in the nation. Ann Arbor, where the university is located, is a mecca for those with new ideals and ways of thinking. It is a very liberal city and has a feel of prosperity. Goggle has moved into town and other tech-savvy industries are knocking on the door. The down town area is gives a big city feel with small town hospitality.
In the warm days, Ann Arbor comes alive as people take to the many city parks and recreation areas to enjoy the day. Down town you find as many bicyclist as cars and even more people deciding to walk. Many people come to Ann Arbor form neighboring areas just to soak up the warm feel of the city. Tons of shopping and entertainment to boot.
Some intangibles to consider:

Michigan is a very prestigious school, far surpassing the University of Illinois.
Michigan sports teams are always on top...espically football.

I praise the University of Michigan despite the fact that I'm a Michigan State University Spartan. Ironic.

[Cato the Elder]

Originally Posted by prestonMI

Hands down U of M. It consistently ranks among the top 5 in engineering. On top of that it's considered one of the best schools in the nation. Ann Arbor, where the university is located, is a mecca for those with new ideals and ways of thinking. It is a very liberal city and has a feel of prosperity. Goggle has moved into town and other tech-savvy industries are knocking on the door. The down town area is gives a big city feel with small town hospitality.
In the warm days, Ann Arbor comes alive as people take to the many city parks and recreation areas to enjoy the day. Down town you find as many bicyclist as cars and even more people deciding to walk. Many people come to Ann Arbor form neighboring areas just to soak up the warm feel of the city. Tons of shopping and entertainment to boot.
Some intangibles to consider:

Michigan is a very prestigious school, far surpassing the University of Illinois.
Michigan sports teams are always on top...espically football.

I praise the University of Michigan despite the fact that I'm a Michigan State University Spartan. Ironic.

I was waiting for someone to bring up Google. I'll give you a perfect example of the difference between U of M and U of I. The latter has something called the NCSA, which basically helped invent the internet among many other aspects related to computing. A relatively average student there by the name of Marc Andreessen invented something called Mosaic and later Netscape while at Illinois, making it possible for people like Larry Page to make billions of dollars doing something as simple as making a search engine (while at Stanford, by the way, not MI). Larry Page as a favor to the state started a branch of their AdWords services in A2. It's a symbolic gesture people. Google is doing much more important work vital to their operations in CA, OR, NY, Atlanta, and Dublin. So Illinois has the NCSA which is still an elite institution of international stature and you want to compare it to a AdWords division of Google?



FWIW, Larry Page was not an average U of M engineering student but arguably its top student as president of U of M's Beta Epsilon (25th) Chapter of Eta Kappa Nu (engineering honor society). Guess who the Alpha chapter and founding university of HKN is? Page, unlike Andreessen, wasn't an "average" resident of the state either. IIRC, his father was an engineering prof at Michigan State. In the end, it's about opportunities, and I'm afraid no matter how you slice it, overall, the opportunities for engineers to make it big are significantly better at Illinois. Like I said before, you're surrounded in every corner by an elite engineering community at Illinois. You can be the son of an autoworker and bloom into an engineering star at Illinois. It's possible at Michigan, but not nearly as easy (unless I suppose your father is a renowned engineering academic and it's in your blood and upbringing from birth).

Again, my purpose isn't to diminish U of M's stature, but to bring some balance to some skewed perceptions. For one, U of M is not "consistently" ranked in the top 5 of engineering - top 10 but there's a significant dropoff after 5. Statements like "hands down" and "far surpassing" are so erroneous. Even Michigan State outshines U of M in a number of fields and the distance is overall quality between U of I and U of M is much smaller than U of I and Michigan State. Do I even have to comment on the relevance of silly statements about U of M sports "always" being on top? I guess I better reserve my Rose Bowl tickets then to cheer on the Blue.

[HotSauce]

I for one think we should eliminate the "star" engineers from this discussion. They would be "stars" no matter where they went to school. Neither U of M nor U of I nor MIT make those people what they are. Let's go to the extreme here for my point. Do you think the schools that any of these guys went to had anything at all to do with their accomplishments: Leonardo da Vinci, Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Einstein, Alan Turing, Wilbur and Orville Wright, Thomas Edison, Nikola Tesla, etc. One would be very short-sighted to even consider that.

[HotSauce]

Any student is going to get out of their education what they put in. Yes I know that being around brilliant driven professors and students may inspire one to higher levels of self-motivation. You will find those people at U of M and U of I. I think we are playing some silly game of "what can I say that will impress everyone more" thinking that if we do that we will somehow convince xcalgal to send her son to our particular favorite between the two schools. I think if anything we are probably starting to deter her.