[Coldjensens]

My brother was in the Aerospace engineering program at U-M years ago. He found it impossible to compete with the ultra intense oriental engineering students who lived and breathed engineering 24/7 so he changed to information science major. I hope that engineering is an obsession for your son rather than just an interest, or maybe things have changed at U-M. However they do have what it takes to generate successful engineers in a competitive field.

[Cato the Elder]

Originally Posted by Coldjensens

My brother was in the Aerospace engineering program at U-M years ago. He found it impossible to compete with the ultra intense oriental engineering students who lived and breathed engineering 24/7 so he changed to information science major. I hope that engineering is an obsession for your son rather than just an interest, or maybe things have changed at U-M. However they do have what it takes to generate successful engineers in a competitive field.

I will not comment too much on what it might tell us about our future, but get used to non-Anglos Saxons dominating many fields, not just engineering. Go into a chemistry lab at a university or one at Merck - it will be dominated by Asians and Eastern Europeans. It's hard work - when I was in grad school, chemistry doctoral students would spend 7 days in the lab, often from the morning to midnight. I couldn't do it, but there are obviously people who can and do.

It's the American way - by the third generation, a family forgets the Old World and starts to get lazy and take things for granted. Asians will be the same way in subsequent generations. You better be "obsessed" by something if you want to compete instead of trying to make the competition slowdown, or worse yet, eliminating the competition. Ever wonder why CA schools like Berkeley have 50% Asians after removing the glass ceiling that's still in place at most unversities? In the meantime, Asians and Eastern Europeans will be the top competitors in the sciences, medicine, and engineering. There's not enough money in English or Anthropology. But even these fields along with other traditionally white-dominated fields are no longer immune.

What's the solution? Tighten up the borders? This will doom the US and make it 2nd-class faster than anything else. These foreigners have been keeping the US at the forefront of technology for years but even this is changing. This year, the most advanced particle accelerator will be in Europe, superceding ours in Batavia, IL. Soon, the most advanced linear accelerator will be there also, superceding ours in Palo Alto, CA. The "headstart" the US had after WWII while the Europeans were picking up the pieces is pretty much gone now. As money pours into Asia and we become increasingly xenophobic and unsupportive of education so we can spend millions on athletes - Go Blue!? - both Europe and Asia will beat the US in attracting the best talent, ending the latest version of the Roman Empire in world history. It is what it is.

[HotSauce]

Originally Posted by Coldjensens

My brother was in the Aerospace engineering program at U-M years ago. He found it impossible to compete with the ultra intense oriental engineering students who lived and breathed engineering 24/7 so he changed to information science major. I hope that engineering is an obsession for your son rather than just an interest, or maybe things have changed at U-M. However they do have what it takes to generate successful engineers in a competitive field.

You would be amazed. I don't think there is as much of this living/breathing engineering 24/7 as you think there is. These kids have a life outside of engineering. Many of them are heavily involved in things outside of the classroom/lab. It is no different than when they were in high school, junior high, grade school - when they were involved in piano lessons, violin lessons, school orchestras and external youth orchestras, sports, debate, mock trial, model UN, chess club, competition after competition in a vast array of areas. I think the key value in many of these kids who excel above most others is their drive and focus - a desire to be the best they can be and the ability to focus on what they are doing at the time.

And behind most of them is a mother who poured herself into her kids. One might ask how can America compete in this new global world. Answer: let's look at what we are doing with our kids during their formative years. Are we throwing them into day care centers? Are those care givers providing our kids with the love and intellectual stimulation that is so important in those very early years.

I have a son who is at the top of just about everything he does. I'll tell you right now: he owes a ton to his mother who gave up so very much to provide him with every possible opportunity from the time he was born until the time he left our home to go to the University of Michigan. By the way his mom is Chinese. I am Heinz 57 American. So he is even more Heinz 57 than I am. I don't think my wife's race has anything to do with it. She gave up a career to raise our kids. She made it a full time job looking for ways to educate our kids from the time they were born until now. Yes they went to public schools. But in reality school was just an extension of what she was teaching them. American public schools tend to teach to the common denominator. Instead of stimulating all of the kids to be high achievers, they tend to dumb down the high achievers. There are a few exceptional teachers here and there that break that mold. But not common.

Now let's wait and see what the next generation is like. Will these young men and women who were given so many opportunities by their parents (especially by their mothers) give the same to their children?

One thing I can tell you: it does not take highly educated parents to do this for their kids. Not at all. But it does take a great amount of love and the willingness to sacrifice.

[Cato the Elder]

Originally Posted by HotSauce

American public schools tend to teach to the common denominator. Instead of stimulating all of the kids to be high achievers, they tend to dumb down the high achievers. There are a few exceptional teachers here and there that break that mold. But not common.

Now let's wait and see what the next generation is like. Will these young men and women who were given so many opportunities by their parents (especially by their mothers) give the same to their children?

One thing I can tell you: it does not take highly educated parents to do this for their kids. Not at all. But it does take a great amount of love and the willingness to sacrifice.

Pretty spot on post. Teaching at U of M, I can tell you how frustrating it is to see most of these supposedly elite students try to figure out ways to do as little work as possible. The difference between them and kids who didn't get in is that they're bright and *will* put in the work, but it's not hardwired in them as the status quo, if you know what I mean. You constantly have to push and push to open up minds.

It comes down to parents' perceptions about education. Many Asians who immigrated into the US in the 70s and earlier are like this b/c their parents were largely educated, white-collar professionals in the motherland. This fact is often lost - you had to be an engineer, nurse, etc to get into the country. Then many of these immigrants turned around and had to work blue-collar jobs to stay afloat. So you see hwo this would be a perfect storm for their kids to succeed - their parents value education and know what it means to succeed, but they were not given the opportunity themselves. Now they see the opportunity for their kids and gear EVERYTHING to make it happen for them. If you look at later Asian immigrants who largely came from SE Asia, most do not have educated, professional parents. They perform more like your average immigrant from the rest of the world. So it's too simplistic to say it's an Asian thing.

I have a good friend with a Ph.D. (caucasian, BTW) who gave up teaching to homeschool her kid after seeing how crummy her first turned out in the public school system. Now the second is headed to Harvard. So the same scenario DOES happen among non-Asians, but circumstances dictate that it is rarer. I know third-generation Asians who have great jobs thanks to their circumstances, and I don't see the "perfect storm" scenario continuing, though I suspect education will always be valued - sort of like the Dutch culture in MI.

[xcalgal]

Hi All,
Well, the deadline came for the final decision and my son chose U of M. I think the pull of having older brothers living close by and the town of Ann Arbor were the things that swung his decision. I am still very nervous about the die-hard competition that he will be facing, but I am very much excited to see him go off for the college experience. Thanks to all of you for your input. Did I mention that this is our 5th and last son that we are putting through college (18 years in total so far)? Signed, Empty Nester, xcalgal