do you think i would like living in michigan if i'm from southern cali (Detroit: home)

[nycjefftrain]

So do you think people that are being pushed out of other places will be pushed to less desirable neighborhoods in Detroit...therefore making them better?? And it does seem that when the gays come, the neighborhood improves...i.e. Greenwich Village and Chelsea. It's what happened in Royal oak and now Ferndale. Any shot of that happening around say...Corktown?? Or anywhere else...maybe Boston-Edison??

[JustT&Me]

Originally Posted by nycjefftrain

So do you think people that are being pushed out of other places will be pushed to less desirable neighborhoods in Detroit...therefore making them better?? And it does seem that when the gays come, the neighborhood improves...i.e. Greenwich Village and Chelsea. It's what happened in Royal oak and now Ferndale. Any shot of that happening around say...Corktown?? Or anywhere else...maybe Boston-Edison??

Hey Jeff... I just submitted a post on another MI thread - wish I could remember which one, but it provides a personally positive opinion of MI - in spite of its economic woes. Check it out... MI has a LOT to offer! (I'm considering actually moving there myself, and one of the holdups has been the significant reminders from family & friends of just how difficult ("impossible" to some) it will be to find a job and maintain a good living.

The thing is... MI is a very rich state when it comes to its many offerings culturally, environmentally, historically, ... more. (Again - check my post, I couldn't have written it better had I sat down and tried, but having been inspired by two other CD contributors - Bhaal & Cato, not to mention a few in other posts: Great Lakes Pirate, Wordsmith#, jeeg, and more... (all of whom I've repped so many times I can't rep until I've spread more of the love around to others!) Lol... ... Not to mention being so close to CAN which is just a joy to visit! (Once you get in/out of Customs!)

I'm wondering... your post seems... a bit hm... biased? Of course, opinions are! But I guess I'm wondering if you think that a group of individuals, in this case, "gays" as you have noted, make a place "better", or if it is simply the fact that when an area grows and attracts ppl of similar mindset and values, that they begin to come together to make it a better place than it was in the process of it becoming disjointed, disgruntled, & disillusioned... suffering in the process of economic downfall?

Granted yes - some groups of ppl in some sub-cultures (not to say those groups are *below* any other group, but just to state that various groups are a part of what constitute a larger community as it grows), IMO, might be better organized or perhaps better-equipped to work better collectively. While other groups/sub-cultures might exist simply bc they live in the same community (community defined as a place or location) rather than having *made* the community (defining "community" in terms of ppl rather than as the place), it would stand to reason that *those* groups might merely be surviving in comparison to the way the latter groups would thrive.

The fact that you referenced "gays" as a group - though speaking in a positive light, still assigns a label that I believe is important we are cautious to use whether we are speaking positively of a group of ppl or not.

While "gays" *do* congregate in forming communities - and I would agree with you ... that their efforts do reflect community improvements in many ways, they are still ppl *first*. And I guess, IMO, I'd rather attempt to find other ways of defining them besides their sexual preference/s, rather than reinforcing - even if in a positive way - the biases and judgments of those who have not yet come to the fact that ppl are just ppl. And, IMO, God created each and every one with unique gifts, talents, and purposes... that we might all contribute in making this world... one community at a time... a better place.

THANK YOU though for your positive references. Through the years, I have witnessed individuals in their "coming out" (or being "found out") journeys, and it staggers me the pains some ppl must endure at the cost of others lack of love, acceptance, and ability to recognize that we are all the same - created to love and to be loved in return.

And before anyone jumps on this wagon, I *am* a conservative, "Bible-believing" Christian. But just one who is firmly rooted in what Christ demonstrated Himself and taught to those around Him, above all else, that Love & Loving was and remains... the greatest gift.

And if those who claim their faith is set on His foundation would strive to "gain understanding" (as is also taught) of those He created (which is each and every one of us), then... I believe we might not have to witness as often, "gays" (and others) congregating and creating sub-cultured (and unfortunately often grossly targeted) communities, as much as we could witness them contributing all they have to offer as *individuals* within the communities in which they live in the first place.

... But if a group of individuals located themselves in the heart of Detroit's declining communities and resurrected it's wonderful histories while contributing much-needed improvements, and if those individuals happened to be "gays", then hopefully those improvements would be just as positively recognized as if they were not.

MI *is* severely economically faltering, and the whole country is being alerted to it. It's quite sad to see such things in areas that at one point were growing & thriving mini-metropolises. And worse... knowing the industries which made them that way - still *exist*, but that they are being "shipped out overseas" to strive & thrive there instead, leaving millions of hard-working U.S. Citizens behind... who helped make those companies become the companies they are today in the first place. Thank you for your post. It was appreciated.

Towards greater understanding ... Peace ~

[nycjefftrain]

wow...great post and answer!!

In reference to people telling you it would be a bad move, how is it that we see people on this very board asking locals where the best place is to move because they received a job offer...one that is great enough to pick up and move??

My brother and sister in law are living proof of this as they both lived out of state and looked to move back to Michigan last year. They were both met with multiple high-paying job offers. So this is an age old argument...people who think there is opportunity vs. those who do not. As I stated in a different thread(or it may be this one) those who are the biggest naysayers are the natives themselves...while those with a fresh perspective are unfazed by this.

In your long post as to me referring to a group of people..in this case "gays"...I guess that does come off as a bit harsh...I type the way I speak...which is actually much more pleasant As a gay man, I have a tendency to just go ahead a label my group as it is because myself and my friends are comfortable with the "gay" label and also comfortable with being labeled as the people who do good for blighted neighborhoods I personally have made this argument to friends and if I were to return to the Detroit area, I'd actually like to be in a "gayborhood"...or at least help to create one opposed to immediately going to Ferndale. I do believe in vibrant neighborhoods with all types of people....I just prefer to bring more attention to specific groups that are synonomous with revitalization opposed to continued ignorance.

And...thanks for your open mind

[detshen]

Look into Corktown if you do return, a couple of my friends live there. The community minded people who happen to be gay and living there are working their magic. New coffee shops and independent stores are opening.

Edit: I just realized you mentioned Corktown so I guess I answered your question on new areas without realizing it.

[JustT&Me]

Originally Posted by nycjefftrain

wow...great post and answer!!

You are welcome, Jeff! I love it when I can say, "Mom was right!" (She & I don't agree on many other things...) But... "If ppl were just nice to each other, the world would be a much better place."

Originally Posted by nycjefftrain

In reference to people telling you it would be a bad move, how is it that we see people on this very board asking locals where the best place is to move because they received a job offer...one that is great enough to pick up and move??

My brother and sister in law are living proof of this as they both lived out of state and looked to move back to Michigan last year. They were both met with multiple high-paying job offers. So this is an age old argument...people who think there is opportunity vs. those who do not. As I stated in a different thread(or it may be this one) those who are the biggest naysayers are the natives themselves...while those with a fresh perspective are unfazed by this.[/quote]

Yes, opportunists certainly find what they seek! CONGRATULATIONS to both your BRO & SIL on their new positions! As the opportunists you are describing, perhaps they will be investing some of their great incomes back into the community into which they have moved.

Being the Pollyanna that I can be... I believe that sometimes the "native naysayers" are those who might simply have found themselves either stuck where they are, stay for familial & other ties to their communities, or might fear the process of leaving and what they might find on the other side - esp. if it they aren't any more prosperous where they go as from the place from which they left. I can render them *at least* a little compassion (?) in whatever situation they exist that they have become the naysayers they are. Perhaps if they became connected to such a "community" as CD, then they might begin to feel more comfortable about testing other waters when they can venture virtually without spending a single cent. (Wow - the thought of it! I can remember when a single cent *actually* bought me something! In fact, even *two* somethings!)

Originally Posted by nycjefftrain

In your long post as to me referring to a group of people..in this case "gays"...I guess that does come off as a bit harsh...I type the way I speak...which is actually much more pleasant As a gay man, I have a tendency to just go ahead a label my group as it is because myself and my friends are comfortable with the "gay" label and also comfortable with being labeled as the people who do good for blighted neighborhoods I personally have made this argument to friends and if I were to return to the Detroit area, I'd actually like to be in a "gayborhood"...or at least help to create one opposed to immediately going to Ferndale. I do believe in vibrant neighborhoods with all types of people....I just prefer to bring more attention to specific groups that are synonomous with revitalization opposed to continued ignorance.

And...thanks for your open mind

Thank you, Jeff. I personally didn't perceive your previous post as "harsh" in any way. So no concerns there. My point was simply one of perspective - how we as humans tend to collectively view other ppl as we associate them in groups. There are many advantageous to doing so, obviously! But more often than not, with reference to "gays," the associations are more negative than positive, so while you did reference "gays" as group in your post, I was appreciative to see a post that positively spoke of them as a group with reference to their contributions rather than it being a "gay" reference - *you* know what I mean!

I have to chuckle - I had not yet heard the phrase "gayborhood". Ha. Hm... I wonder how Mr. Rogers would have sounded singing, "Won't you be... my gaybor!" If I move to MI, and you decide to move or travel through... you'd be welcome to visit. However, I'm more a Yooper-type, so you'd have quite a drive to make it my 'neck of the woods" and where the "vibrancy" in the communities might more likely noted by their "flaming" orange vests & caps ... limited primarily to hunting season (& then again - probably not - I'm guessing some folks wear their orange proudly year-round!) Lol! (And in the spirit of our little exchange here, I'm hoping you perceived that without offense - knowing my perspectives on the matter.)

Blessings to you & all your endeavors!
And to Michigan's Neighborhoods' Revitalization: A Meeting of Like Minds

[missfyr]

Be sure you don't lose your sunglasses! Just because the leaves have fallen and there's clouds in the sky..........alot of clouds........when you're driving it's very important to keep the sg's handy when there's snow on the ground. You've probably heard of snow blindness, and when that sun peeks out and that glare starts shining off that white stuff it can feel like it's frying your eyes right out of your brain bucket! Not to mention it's awfully hard to see when you're squinting alot

True, it's cloudy, and some people do get S.A.D., or as we call it just plain old cabin fever. But as another poster said, when you live here you (should) have plenty of cold weather gear.

Snow is NO excuse to stay inside ALL THE TIME

[JustT&Me]

Originally Posted by missfyr

Be sure you don't lose your sunglasses! Just because the leaves have fallen and there's clouds in the sky..........alot of clouds........when you're driving it's very important to keep the sg's handy when there's snow on the ground. You've probably heard of snow blindness, and when that sun peeks out and that glare starts shining off that white stuff it can feel like it's frying your eyes right out of your brain bucket! ...

You are *so* right! Funny thing is ... now that I'm wearing "reading glasses" (cheap ones), I rarely take them off. And I've always kept my SGs right by the door in a basket but rarely put them on! I really need to be using them though, so great reminder! Thanks!

[Cato the Elder]

Originally Posted by Bhaalspawn

Is the alleged "ignorance" really ignorance or is it just a case of people who have a philosophical disagreement with you? How does this "ignorance" manifest itself?

Nothing "alleged" about it. I see it every day. Look at the posts by Dieselthedog and see that even privileged residents with a college degree can be ignorant.

If you want the most famous manifestations, think of things like the 1982 killing of Vincent Chin. As you probably know and might want to forget is that Chin was beat up simply for being Asian, or I should say for symbolizing Japanese car companies despite being Chinese. He was beat up with a baseball bat by a Chrysler FOREMAN - someone who presumably is a leader and a role model. But it doesn't stop there - the foreman never spent a year in jail! What does this tell you about the judge and jury?

But you say this was 25 years ago. I'm afraid times haven't changed that much during this time. More recently, there was a gay couple who lived near Woodward and Mack. They were strong supporters of renewal in the area and pillars in the community. One got off the bus one day and was promptly beaten to death WITH A BASEBALL BAT for simply being gay. This time it was a black person, suggesting that this ignorance transcends ethnicity and socio-economic status. What's with baseball bats and beatings?! I'm sorry, civilized, enlightened people do not do this. This is ignorance - two strongly contributing members of society beaten up for simply being Asian and gay. I was walking in Fairlane Mall with a Filipino friend from out of town one day. Two African-american girls promptly giggled in a haughty manner and started shouting derogatory names. Etc., etc., etc. You might think this is normal, but it almost never happens in mainstream areas of other US cities.

I provided two highly visible examples, but smaller examples of this ignorance happen every day. It's often subtle to the point that you'll often miss it. But then you do a double take and ask, "Did that person just do/say that?" Ignorant people who are born and bred here and have spent little time elsewhere don't even usually know they are ignorant. I had an Asian colleague tell me that he went to pick up his son at a top-rated daycare and the head teacher commented that he looked awfully familiar. Then she railed on about how he must be an "oriental actor" she had seen on tv. She then proceeded to goad him into making sounds that this actor made by saying things like "wha tah!" and other derogatory sounds. My friend, this is ignorance. It's all over the US, but it's THICK here. You can cut it, breathe it, and experience it every day if you know what to look for. Sorry for the reality check.

[philosophy81]

I think you'd hate it way too different climates.. you don't know how lucky you have it!!!

[Bhaalspawn]

Originally Posted by Cato the Elder

Nothing "alleged" about it. I see it every day. Look at the posts by Dieselthedog and see that even privileged residents with a college degree can be ignorant.

I don't know or haven't paid much attention to that guy so I can't really comment, but I suspect that you can also find people without college educations who are not "ignorant" and it's difficult to make sweeping generalizations like the claim you made based on small amounts of anecdotal evidence.

If you want the most famous manifestations, think of things like the 1982 killing of Vincent Chin. As you probably know and might want to forget is that Chin was beat up simply for being Asian, or I should say for symbolizing Japanese car companies despite being Chinese. He was beat up with a baseball bat by a Chrysler FOREMAN - someone who presumably is a leader and a role model. But it doesn't stop there - the foreman never spent a year in jail! What does this tell you about the judge and jury?

I've never heard of this case but I was just a little kidlin back then. Without knowing anything all of the details about the case it's impossible to comment on the merit of the jury's verdict. Anyway, I doubt that racially and ethnically motivated killings are unique to Detroit.

I have a hard time believing that Michiganders and Detroiters are any more racist and anti-social than people in other states and cities and a couple anecdotes collected over years isn't real convincing. If we went looking I'm certain that we could find a vast plethora of racial incidents and similar complaints all across the country.