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Old 01-19-2016, 08:25 PM
 
Location: Grand Rapids Metro
8,882 posts, read 19,779,462 times
Reputation: 3920

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jswee View Post
"However, the Flint River is much higher in Chloride than Detroit City water, which corrodes the lead in the solders."

This was your explanation of how lead is leaching into the water, which is not correct.

As mentioned, the problem is due to the chemical removal of the mineral scale which coats the inside of pipes, both lead service lines and copper pipes that have lead in the soldered joints. The lining of the pipes is removed as the result of the addition of chemicals designed to soften hard water, thus exposing the lead to the water flowing through the pipes. Other chemicals, phosphates, are usually added to prevent the softening agents from removing the mineral scale lining of the pipes, which usually limits the contact of lead with the water that people are consuming. Had phosphates not been added to the Detroit water, it too would have removed the mineral scale and caused lead leaching. It was the lack of phosphates being added, not the salt levels or "corrosive-ness" of the water from the Flint River, that caused the problem.
Did you go to the link I provided?:

Why is it possible that Flint River water cannot be treated to meet Federal Standards? | Flint Water Study Updates

Why is Flint River water more corrosive compared to Detroit water? Flint River water has about 8 times more chloride (Cl–) in it than Detroit water.

Flint River water has 8x the amount of chloride as Detroit water, and probably should not have been used at all, according to the Flint Water Study site.

I know that the decision to not treat Flint water was the MAIN cause of leaching of lead. You probably misread my statement that you quoted. Perhaps I should have said "However, the Flint River is much higher in Chloride (which corrodes lead in the solders), than Detroit City Water.

The decision to not treat Flint River water was made by??? Drum roll...
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Old 01-19-2016, 08:26 PM
 
Location: P.C.F
1,973 posts, read 2,256,832 times
Reputation: 1626
Really???Political?
Quote:
Originally Posted by animatedmartian View Post
Stand together for what? Flint already switched their water back to Detroit's a couple of months ago. Now it's a matter of getting the pipes completely cleaned of the lead which is still taking some time. Flint could accelerate the process, but they don't have the money to do so. Meanwhile, the residents of Flint will have to avoid drinking tap and hopefully no more folks are sickened by doing so.

The only reason it's still a news story is for political twisting.
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Old 01-19-2016, 08:27 PM
 
Location: Grand Rapids Metro
8,882 posts, read 19,779,462 times
Reputation: 3920
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macgregorsailor51 View Post
Really???Political?
That post was from a month ago.
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Old 01-19-2016, 11:12 PM
 
1,317 posts, read 1,921,011 times
Reputation: 1925
I feel like it is impossible to have an intelligent conversation on this topic with most people.
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Old 01-20-2016, 12:56 AM
 
Location: Pacific Northwest
3,762 posts, read 1,726,676 times
Reputation: 4942
Sad situation, each year there seems to be a new city with water pollution. A while back it was in Toledo, OH we need to start protecting our water supply.
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Old 01-20-2016, 05:45 AM
 
Location: Concord, CA
7,129 posts, read 9,207,748 times
Reputation: 25372
Default What's the Chemistry?

How did the lead get there in the first place?

What chemical reaction causes lead to suddenly dissolve into the water?

The Romans learned about 2000 years ago that using lead as a material for drinking water pipes was a very bad idea.

Did the city initially use lead pipes for it water mains or is it just lead in the solder at pipe joints?

Do other cities also use lead pipes?

Inquiring minds need to know.
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Old 01-20-2016, 06:41 AM
 
Location: Metro Detroit
1,786 posts, read 2,645,587 times
Reputation: 3603
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macgregorsailor51 View Post
Really???Political?
Yes!

Flint’s mayor endorses Hillary Clinton for president

Yep, sounds like politics play a part in this to me. We're all just so pissed off about the situation that we've decided to twist it and make it our pet in which to point at and say, "See!! He's no good" (Snyder/Earley) or "See!! They're no good" (EPA/MDEQ) or "See! He won't help!" (Obama) or "See! She'll help." (Clinton..?)

Like all news items that stay front page, it's driven by the politics and the ability to point to it as a partisan divide.
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Old 01-20-2016, 06:48 AM
 
Location: P.C.F
1,973 posts, read 2,256,832 times
Reputation: 1626
That was my point... People( MILLIONS OF THEM ) JUMP on a subject with some crappy theory or ridiculous political bias and post it all over the internet and then when the facts come to light and or Faux News no longer finds it interesting, then what? Flint MI and its entire population got screwed by teagaggers.. That fool should be held Criminally responsible...




Quote:
Originally Posted by magellan View Post
That post was from a month ago.
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Old 01-20-2016, 06:52 AM
 
Location: Grand Rapids Metro
8,882 posts, read 19,779,462 times
Reputation: 3920
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vision67 View Post
How did the lead get there in the first place?

What chemical reaction causes lead to suddenly dissolve into the water?

The Romans learned about 2000 years ago that using lead as a material for drinking water pipes was a very bad idea.

Did the city initially use lead pipes for it water mains or is it just lead in the solder at pipe joints?

Do other cities also use lead pipes?

Inquiring minds need to know.
Older pipes all over the country have lead in them, particularly solder joints. Even in Colorado, apparently.

Just like lead-based paint. We know a lot more now than we did back then on a lot of things.

Just like the Combined Sewer Overflow separation (CSO) projects, I wouldn't be surprised to see the EPA push now to require cities to remove all water pipes that contain any amount of lead. Probably with a 20 year timeline.

Last edited by magellan; 01-20-2016 at 07:44 AM..
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Old 01-20-2016, 07:11 AM
 
Location: Grand Rapids Metro
8,882 posts, read 19,779,462 times
Reputation: 3920
The (non partisan) Virginia Tech Research Team has set up a website that is pretty informative: Flint Water Study Updates | Up-to-date information on our collaborative research and citizen science work with the residents of Flint, MI in light of reported water quality issues.

Virginia Tech was one of the first group of scientists who raised concerns about the lead levels in Flint's water after the switch to Flint River. This was the group that was discredited by State MDEQ officials, part of the reason why 2 MDEQ officials no longer have a job.

This is a really good timeline:

Michigan Governor Rick Snyder’s Office Released This Flint Water Timeline To Address Questions On Who Knew What and When | Flint Water Study Updates

The decision "not to treat for corrosion" with orthophosphate seems to have been made as a group: between MDEQ, a city hired water consultant, a city-hired engineering firm, the EM, and the EPA; not the city council. As is the case in most city council and city commission decisions, these city leaders rely heavily on environmental agencies and professional consultants to make infrastructure decisions, because most do NOT have a scientific background.

Apparently they didn't treat with orthophosphate (the Detroit system does) and instead instituted a rolling 6 month testing period for any signs of corrosion of lead and copper, starting 3 months after they made the switch.

Which really begs a really stupid question: If you're just going to use the Flint River in the interim, and you have a pretty good idea that chloride exists in a river like the Flint River, why wouldn't you just spend the little bit of extra money and treat with orthophosphate? Why chance it? Or a really simple chloride test on Flint River water during the year that Detroit water system gave them before making the interim switch?

Last edited by magellan; 01-20-2016 at 08:03 AM..
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