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Old 06-08-2017, 10:36 PM
 
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
13,569 posts, read 9,522,372 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MS313 View Post
We'll see. It's kind of said how many people think presidential elections are the only ones that matter when in reality, they actually matter the least out of house, senate, governor, and mayor elections. There you have the problem with how many people have liberal values but don't vote until the presidential elections. With everything going on right now it's hard for me to see if this will hurt the republican party or not. Some of these bills they're trying to get passed is probably going to hurt their party in the next few years.
How much of the emergency powers allowing the governor to appoint an unelected city manager affect local turnout in state and local elections in Michigan?
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Old 06-08-2017, 10:53 PM
 
Location: Grand Rapids Metro
8,884 posts, read 19,069,481 times
Reputation: 3911
Quote:
Originally Posted by silverkris View Post
How much of the emergency powers allowing the governor to appoint an unelected city manager affect local turnout in state and local elections in Michigan?
The governor has only pulled that in what, 3 or 4 cities in Michigan? Out of thousands of municipalities? I don't think it has affected turnout at all.
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Old 06-09-2017, 09:07 AM
 
Location: Naperville, IL
196 posts, read 267,593 times
Reputation: 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by magellan View Post
The governor has only pulled that in what, 3 or 4 cities in Michigan? Out of thousands of municipalities? I don't think it has affected turnout at all.
But these cities had relatively large populations,no ? Detroit, Flint, Pontiac, Benton Harbor... and the vast majority of municipalities were minority-majority populations. Snyder appointed 12 of the 25 EMs in the Michigan over the last 15-20 years (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financ...cy_in_Michigan). He definitely has a penchant for it, and it is certainly not well received locally (https://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/23/u...-managers.html.) This must be having some impact on the electorate - either in motivation, turnout, choice of candidates, grass-roots organizing, etc.
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Old 06-09-2017, 11:52 AM
 
Location: Detroit
3,671 posts, read 5,502,626 times
Reputation: 2672
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoePO View Post
But these cities had relatively large populations,no ? Detroit, Flint, Pontiac, Benton Harbor... and the vast majority of municipalities were minority-majority populations. Snyder appointed 12 of the 25 EMs in the Michigan over the last 15-20 years (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financ...cy_in_Michigan). He definitely has a penchant for it, and it is certainly not well received locally (https://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/23/u...-managers.html.) This must be having some impact on the electorate - either in motivation, turnout, choice of candidates, grass-roots organizing, etc.
No. The only cities with a pretty large population is Detroit and Flint. And Detroit has multiple suburbs that are larger than Flint. Pontiac is small and Benton Harbor is tiny. Nearly every Detroit suburb and Detroit neighborhood has a larger population than Benton Harbor.
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Old 06-09-2017, 12:33 PM
 
Location: Naperville, IL
196 posts, read 267,593 times
Reputation: 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by MS313 View Post
No. The only cities with a pretty large population is Detroit and Flint. And Detroit has multiple suburbs that are larger than Flint. Pontiac is small and Benton Harbor is tiny. Nearly every Detroit suburb and Detroit neighborhood has a larger population than Benton Harbor.
Yeah, I know they're not huge except for Detroit (I lived in MI for several years, and know some people who currently live in BH...), but there's been a lot of these EMs appointed, and I'd think that it would have some effect esp among the electorate directly affected. And Flint isn't much smaller than Lansing or Ann Arbor, Pontiac is bigger than Saginaw... most MI "cities" are rather small (my suburb would be the 3rd largest city in MI). I think about 900,000 to maybe 1M people statewide have been affected by having an EM appointed to their municipality. 10% of the state's population?
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Old 06-10-2017, 07:12 AM
 
Location: Grand Rapids Metro
8,884 posts, read 19,069,481 times
Reputation: 3911
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoePO View Post
Yeah, I know they're not huge except for Detroit (I lived in MI for several years, and know some people who currently live in BH...), but there's been a lot of these EMs appointed, and I'd think that it would have some effect esp among the electorate directly affected. And Flint isn't much smaller than Lansing or Ann Arbor, Pontiac is bigger than Saginaw... most MI "cities" are rather small (my suburb would be the 3rd largest city in MI). I think about 900,000 to maybe 1M people statewide have been affected by having an EM appointed to their municipality. 10% of the state's population?
So 10% of the State's population has been affected by the EM law over the last 10 - 15 years. Typical voter turnout is what? 30% - 40% for local issues and candidates? So let's assume that 20% of people who would have turned out for local elections in the EM municipalities stay home.... 20% of 30% of 900,000 is 54,000 fewer people voting in the State? That's less than 1/2% of the entire State population. And that 900,000 has been off-and-on because those cities were not under the EM law for the entire 15 years.

Why would folks in Lansing, Battle Creek, Ann Arbor, Traverse City, Midland, Saginaw, Grand Rapids, Walker, Wyandotte, Port Huron, Brighton, Farmington Hills, Ecorse, Monroe, Muskegon, Hastings, Paw Paw, etc etc stay home or not organize politically because of EM law? In fact, I think things like the EM law give some voters a reason to be dissatisfied and may get them off their couches and to the polls.

I'm not a fan of the EM law and it's overreaching power at times, but I don't really see where this discussion is going and how it relates to the topic. Probably should have been in its own topic.
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Old 06-10-2017, 07:23 AM
 
Location: Macao
16,286 posts, read 41,078,175 times
Reputation: 10119
Michigan IS a conservative state.

DEVOS is from Michigan....she's spearheaded charter schools in the major cities for the last 20 years...Detroit, Saginaw, you name it...are all conservative policies.

SNYDER is the governor. He's corrupt as hell, and also Republican conservative. He's giving water rights to Nestle for $1...he has a relative connection to Nestle corporation. Meanwhile, he's not fixing the Flint Water.

He's pretty much ALL about selling out to any corporations or lobbyists.

Michigan is extremely conservative. Education standards are almost as low as Mississippi now. They also strongly stand against raising minimum wage, and changed to a 'right to work' state. They are following the model of southern states.

They are also stripping back the gun laws, and making it easier for any dearranged or criminal person to get a gun.

It's very conservative.
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Old 06-10-2017, 05:36 PM
 
915 posts, read 1,387,423 times
Reputation: 1353
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiger Beer View Post
Michigan IS a conservative state.

DEVOS is from Michigan....she's spearheaded charter schools in the major cities for the last 20 years...Detroit, Saginaw, you name it...are all conservative policies.

SNYDER is the governor. He's corrupt as hell, and also Republican conservative. He's giving water rights to Nestle for $1...he has a relative connection to Nestle corporation. Meanwhile, he's not fixing the Flint Water.

He's pretty much ALL about selling out to any corporations or lobbyists.

Michigan is extremely conservative. Education standards are almost as low as Mississippi now. They also strongly stand against raising minimum wage, and changed to a 'right to work' state. They are following the model of southern states.

They are also stripping back the gun laws, and making it easier for any dearranged or criminal person to get a gun.

It's very conservative.
Trying telling conservatives that Snyder is conservative. They loathe him as much as the Liberals do. (Thanks for the laughs BTW!)

IF you haven't noticed, we keep electing the same Democratic Senators year after year - Levin (D) was replaced by Peters (D) and Stabenow is up for re-election next year. As far as I know, there are no Republicans willing to take that challenge yet.

DeVos - yes, from Michigan, but a lot of her specific policy proposals are just that - proposals. It's still as difficult as ever to convince people of the need for educational choices outside of the public school system. Not much has changed since Snyder has been governor or DeVos was put in as Education Secretary.

Yes, Michigan went "right to work", but that's because there was the votes in the legislature to do that. However, anyone can still see all the union pride they want in SE Michigan - the unions haven't gone anywhere. They are still a presence in the state. Obviously - someone doesn't remember the '00's when manufacturers were literally choosing Ohio or Indiana over Michigan because of all the regulations and resistance they got here. Unions aren't the panacea you are making them out to be.

I understand the need for gun regulation, but those of us who have mental illnesses are very cautious about legislation that could take away our rights because people aren't automatically criminals just because they have mental illnesses.

What exactly is that line? How do you draw it? Why would you draw it there and not somewhere else? If a schizophrenic is able to control their delusions with medication and are following their treatment plan with a licensed professional - I really don't have a problem with that person having a gun.

Even the most sane people can crack given the right circumstances, but we trust and assume that they won't.

Most people in Michigan just aren't arch-conservative "wingnuts", nor are they all whiny Liberal "snowflakes". They are in the middle somewhere - while the politicians play for their fringes.

There are specific reasons why Donald Trump barely won Michigan in the general and Ted Cruz didn't win the primary (who was the fave among my uber-conservative friends btw). Hillary Clinton lost the election in Michigan for very specific reasons. So, I kind of laugh when people say Michigan went "red" because it barely went "red". Normally - we are considered a blue state (sadly, but for good reasons).

In the end, I argue that we are a very purple state and that because Team "R" put up a non-traditional "R" candidate, team "R" was able to win counties and communities they tend to lose under normal circumstances. That doesn't mean that there was a fundamental shift in opinion and attitude. It means that Team "D" didn't put up the best candidate to win Michigan.

It has nothing to do with "being like the South" - which I'm taking to be an insult against southern culture - which isn't all bad. (Surprisingly, if you go to some places in the South - it's just like living up North these days!)

Could Michigan improve? Yea - there's room for improvement. The problem is that people may not be keen on what Conservatives offer, but people really aren't interested in what passes for modern Liberals offer either. So - what exactly is the alternative, if we keep playing within the rules of the two party system?
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Old 06-10-2017, 10:48 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit
1,787 posts, read 2,423,685 times
Reputation: 3594
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiger Beer View Post
...
SNYDER is the governor. He's corrupt as hell, and also Republican conservative. He's giving water rights to Nestle for $1...he has a relative connection to Nestle corporation. Meanwhile, he's not fixing the Flint Water.
...
What this tells me is that you have literally no idea what you're talking about. The water in Flint is, as of June of 2017, probably in better shape than most water systems in the nation, and also without question the most tested water in the nation. Testing results if you'd like to verify this for yourself:
Flint Water - Test Results

While the Nestle water thing is so misreported in the media it's almost entertaining. Nestle has had a permit for this water since 2008. Snyder was elected in 2010. Nestle had to do a watershed analysis in order to invoke their existing permit to increase pumping from 250 gpm to 400 gpm. The analysis indicated there would be no significant adverse impact, so the use permit was allowed to be implemented. You can read more about that here:
Nestlé Permit Overview

And just as an aside - I don't really like Snyder. He has made some good choices, but also some bad ones. Overall, I think he's a typical slimy politician and I too would agree that he's a bit overly liberal with the EM thing, but when you try to use the terribly inaccurate "woe are the people of Flint" thing and make a big deal out of the Nestle water extraction, I have to educate you.
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Old 06-11-2017, 01:41 AM
 
Location: Detroit
3,671 posts, read 5,502,626 times
Reputation: 2672
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoePO View Post
Yeah, I know they're not huge except for Detroit (I lived in MI for several years, and know some people who currently live in BH...), but there's been a lot of these EMs appointed, and I'd think that it would have some effect esp among the electorate directly affected. And Flint isn't much smaller than Lansing or Ann Arbor, Pontiac is bigger than Saginaw... most MI "cities" are rather small (my suburb would be the 3rd largest city in MI). I think about 900,000 to maybe 1M people statewide have been affected by having an EM appointed to their municipality. 10% of the state's population?
Pontiac is only bigger than Saginaw likely only because of it's proximity to Detroit and the industries that were there. And well yea you right, because the 3rd largest city in Michigan is a Detroit suburb as well lol. Grand Rapids is bigger than Flint, Benton Harbor, and Pontiac put together so that right there alone would be a wash. Detroit always goes democrat. So overall it won't make that much of a difference. Magellan explained it well.

Quote:
Trying telling conservatives that Snyder is conservative. They loathe him as much as the Liberals do. (Thanks for the laughs BTW!)

IF you haven't noticed, we keep electing the same Democratic Senators year after year - Levin (D) was replaced by Peters (D) and Stabenow is up for re-election next year. As far as I know, there are no Republicans willing to take that challenge yet.

DeVos - yes, from Michigan, but a lot of her specific policy proposals are just that - proposals. It's still as difficult as ever to convince people of the need for educational choices outside of the public school system. Not much has changed since Snyder has been governor or DeVos was put in as Education Secretary.

Yes, Michigan went "right to work", but that's because there was the votes in the legislature to do that. However, anyone can still see all the union pride they want in SE Michigan - the unions haven't gone anywhere. They are still a presence in the state. Obviously - someone doesn't remember the '00's when manufacturers were literally choosing Ohio or Indiana over Michigan because of all the regulations and resistance they got here. Unions aren't the panacea you are making them out to be.

I understand the need for gun regulation, but those of us who have mental illnesses are very cautious about legislation that could take away our rights because people aren't automatically criminals just because they have mental illnesses.

What exactly is that line? How do you draw it? Why would you draw it there and not somewhere else? If a schizophrenic is able to control their delusions with medication and are following their treatment plan with a licensed professional - I really don't have a problem with that person having a gun.

Even the most sane people can crack given the right circumstances, but we trust and assume that they won't.

Most people in Michigan just aren't arch-conservative "wingnuts", nor are they all whiny Liberal "snowflakes". They are in the middle somewhere - while the politicians play for their fringes.

There are specific reasons why Donald Trump barely won Michigan in the general and Ted Cruz didn't win the primary (who was the fave among my uber-conservative friends btw). Hillary Clinton lost the election in Michigan for very specific reasons. So, I kind of laugh when people say Michigan went "red" because it barely went "red". Normally - we are considered a blue state (sadly, but for good reasons).

In the end, I argue that we are a very purple state and that because Team "R" put up a non-traditional "R" candidate, team "R" was able to win counties and communities they tend to lose under normal circumstances. That doesn't mean that there was a fundamental shift in opinion and attitude. It means that Team "D" didn't put up the best candidate to win Michigan.

It has nothing to do with "being like the South" - which I'm taking to be an insult against southern culture - which isn't all bad. (Surprisingly, if you go to some places in the South - it's just like living up North these days!)

Could Michigan improve? Yea - there's room for improvement. The problem is that people may not be keen on what Conservatives offer, but people really aren't interested in what passes for modern Liberals offer either. So - what exactly is the alternative, if we keep playing within the rules of the two party system?
Yeah I got a good laugh out of his post as well. Thanks for beating me to it. Btw Michigan public school rankings are 29th right behind liberal Washington state. Mississippi is 49th. Michigan and Mississippi are not even comparable in almost anything. It's like comparing Wisconsin or Ohio to West Virginia, totally different places.

Last edited by MS313; 06-11-2017 at 01:52 AM..
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