Think hard before you relocate to Michigan (Eagle: house, rent)

[TaxBait]

Originally Posted by Cato the Elder

.... You can't get paid $50/hour turning screws and mopping up vomit anymore. These jobs that any human can do are overseas and the jobs you can't ship overseas like mopping vomit are getting filled by immigrants coming here. You're best bet to get a living wage in the US these days is to get educated...

It's rather naive to think only manual labor jobs are being exported.

And, while I wouldn't discourage someone from pursuing a degree, I have to agree somewhat with malamute. As a minimum, it's a politician's favorite smokescreen to avoid talking about the real, hard choices that will eventually have to be made. We can't educate ourselves out of a government spending death spiral.

[michiganirish]

Originally Posted by Angel Bear

Our state is just going to have to shift. Our economy psychologically and in other ways is so linked to the automotive companies. We'll just have to change and diversify. The auto companies will have to do the same. But, it WILL turn around. It always does.

Metro Detroit is not the entire state of Michigan. There are other industries and jobs in other areas.

I'm sure people thinking about relocating here know all about the state of our economy--if they have done their homework, etc.

I'm grateful that my husband and I have financial security because we didn't max out on our mortgage.

My dear lady, I don't believe anyone used Metro Detroit as a comparison to the entire state of Michigan... And I do believe that you are delusional. My husband and I lived in Brighton, we didn't "max out our mortgage", in fact we only had about 8 years to pay on it, my husband was a senior manager in a manufacturing plant (auto related) we) he lost his job, for 2 years he looked for a job, "other industries and jobs in other areas", even other "industries like Home Depot and Loewes. Long story short, we lost our home...... our retirement savings, everything.

He was finally offered a job in NY state, it was a $35,000.00 less pay than what he had made but I can tell you we were thrilled!!!!

I find your comments smug and arrogant..... I truly hope your "financial security" continues, and that your husband never has to look for another job in another industry.

[missfyr]

and I won't move, no matter what.

A few chosen, enlightened folks on this forum have stated it quite clearly. If you think you can make it you can, if not then you won't.

Times like these are when you find out just what YOU are made of.

[Bhaalspawn]

Originally Posted by Cato the Elder

This is the exact thinking that's dooming the long-time blue-collar Michiganders. If you wear a parachute when you skydive, there is no guarantee that it will open, but you know what, I'll take the parachute, thank you very much. This isn't a ploy; there is no conspirancy - manufacturing is dead, people. You can't get paid $50/hour turning screws and mopping up vomit anymore. These jobs that any human can do are overseas and the jobs you can't ship overseas like mopping vomit are getting filled by immigrants coming here. You're best bet to get a living wage in the US these days is to get educated, simple as that. No more relying on Uncle UAW. The US, and Michigan's blue-collar culture in particular, is now reaping the rewards for poo-poo-ing education for the past couple generations. The jig is up, the conga is over, the fat lady is singing...

I hate to break this to you, but just about any job that can be done on a computer can also be done on a computer overseas, such as computer programming, financial analysis, patent law, engineering, and architecture. For that matter, scientific research and engineering R&D, such as biotech research, can also be done in other countries for less money. Sadly, high-value-added college-education-requiring knowledge-based jobs are also subject to the ravages of global labor arbitrage, either in the form of offshoring or the importation of foreigners on H-1B and L-1 visas.

Retrain, reeducate--for what? We already have a large oversupply of people with high-fallutin' advanced degrees such as MBAs, lawyers, and Ph.D. scientists.

If we suddenly doubled the number of engineers overnight, would the number of jobs for engineers at currently prevailing wages also double? If we suddenly doubled the number of pharmacists would the number of jobs for pharmacists at currently prevailing wages also double?

Sadly, education is not the magical solution to our nation's economic problems; the solution is to have good economic policies.

[JustT&Me]

Originally Posted by Bhaalspawn

I hate to break this to you, but just about any job that can be done on a computer can also be done on a computer overseas, ... Sadly, education is not the magical solution to our nation's economic problems; the solution is to have good economic policies.

I'm degreed. Of itself, the degree has never paid me more than any "labor" or contractual job that I had created for myself. However, I would agree with Cato that it *can* help someone to improve their life ... If an individual's goals would be better attained via "higher" education, then go for it! But it will also cost much more than just getting a "labor" job - during which time you can be saving what you are earning instead of paying interest on a loan for a job that you never found or which was "shipped out overseas..."

So I believe that both Cato & Bhaal were/are well-stated on this matter. And definitely agree with Bhaal on at least one solution to our nation's economic problems... is to improve our economic policies.

It is our own responsibility to educate both ourselves and our Congressman (regarding which policies we believe are best to promote/support or not and why), and until and/or unless many of our policies change... then we will continue our economic down-spiraling until we are left with nothing more remaining than what those countries hold now to which we are outsourcing what we have. And one of those most significant "resources" being... the hearts, minds, and determination of hard- (or smart-) working U.S. Citizens.

Unfortunately, not all U.S. Citizens prefer working over collecting assistance, and I'm not talking about those who truly need it but those capable millions (?) who simply choose not to work. Yes, Bhaal - we need to take a long, hard look at our country's policies and make it a priority to begin changing those which are not benefitting us as a nation, then *do* something about it!

... ... And that's why... I've just submitted my intentions... to run on the ticket for U.S. President! Obviously, jk... but nonetheless... well-spoken perspectives to you both - Cato & Bhaal.

And as far as how this fits into MI... I've been visiting there for over a decade now, and knowing folks who work there, I've seen ppl both flourish and flounder. It *is* up to the individual what the individual makes of themselves, but economic policies can certainly alter one's course, even if they *are* formally educated.

Personally, I think MI is a GREAT state - besides their economic considerations. If someone has not spent a good amount of time traveling its beautiful beaches (yes!), incredible dunes, visited its many cultural areas in and around Detroit area, or taken the time to scoot over to CAN for a look around - so close!, met the friendly folks in GR, strolled the artsy-rich Ann Arbor areas or its Arts Fest, plucked your own souvenir Petoskey from the shores of Lake MI, taken a step "Somewhere in Time" on Mac Isle, cruised over their bridge up and along Hwy 2 through the relaxing Northwoods and Lake MI's rocky, lighthouse-lit landscape, then toured up its Northern borders to venture the sites and scenes of the Pictured Rocks, more lighthouses, Marquette's bustling college community, Presque Isle's sun-down delight of deer running through the trails, Munising's musings of its 140+ waterfalls Munising Michigan Area Waterfalls - (I guess I could have added links for all the other sites, but if they sound inviting to you, you can Google any and all of them for more info), gone down to visit its neighboring Packerland communities, or back up into the ever-popular Porkies... and further north (shh... I won't even *begin* to go there - bc ... it's just too beautiful to mention in case all you CD folks decide to venture there!), ...

... then you haven't been to Michigan. And anyone who would want to leave such a beautiful state, IMO, would be leaving such richness behind - and such a history! But that's okay - bc after awhile, like most folks, the diehards all go back... and that's what keeps it alive and growing. Growth isn't always best-noted in terms of data and statistics...

There are some things that money just can't buy, and one of them is the natural resources and beauty of those places that many Michiganders and Yoopers know all too well to leave "Home," in search of something you can't take with you, in exchange for everything you can.

Michigan is soul-feeding, soul-inspiring, and provides a serenity that some ppl have to leave before they can find out just what they've left behind. And for those who value it otherwise (meaning not...), it is a mutual benefit that you have left to find what you want and left behind those who would rather not live in any other place.

(Sorry so long, but MI really is *that* great!)

[malamute]

Originally Posted by TaxBait

It's rather naive to think only manual labor jobs are being exported.

And, while I wouldn't discourage someone from pursuing a degree, I have to agree somewhat with malamute. As a minimum, it's a politician's favorite smokescreen to avoid talking about the real, hard choices that will eventually have to be made. We can't educate ourselves out of a government spending death spiral.

And while there are many college students with IQs of 80-95, (half the population is at or over 100, half is at or below 100) they may not be studying in the fields that have shortages of employees, and they may not compete too well in their fields -- depending on the major.

I'm not in Michigan, but I'm in an area where you can see recent college graduates that are functionally illiterate -- meaning they can't follow simple written instructions and carry them out.

I also see work ethic as a very big factor in success. There are those who become unemployed and will sit out the whole time waiting for the unemployment to run out -- seeing it as a type of paid vacation. Those who don't accept being unemployed will run out and find a job -- even if they have to move to get one.

My feeling is that for the hard times coming up, it's better to raise your kids with the idea of a work ethic, flexibility -- meaning they will do whatever job, and also higher education of some kind. The idea that you can have your parents take out a second mortgage and sit in college for 4-8 years and then everything will be great isn't going to guarantee anything. You'd better be careful about the degree programs -- because in 4-8 years, will it help with attaining a job, and will you enjoy that job and so be motivated.

This is what one guy told me recently -- he sent his son to college, and he studied art. He got a job teaching -- hated it. So he sent him back for a graduate degree and he studied art history. He got a job in an art museum -- hated it. He's now working as a fireman and loves his job. Dad will be paying on the college loans well into his retirement.

[deslok]

Part of the reason I left is the bickering. Why sit and listen to it everyday when you don't have to? Other states have great looking views of the beach, amazing trees, whatever else, and also have the benefit of not having the Michigander's present. The midwest is lame for the most part, the rest of the world is just noticing it a bit more. In other states, I don't feel trapped, or bored, or limited by silly thoughts like "I can't do that, I've lived here my whole life" or, "darn right people should get money for their foreclosed mortgage". Ahh, it is so nice to not have to hear it as often.
If I could substitute the people in Michigan for the people in Southern California, Chicago, or even New York city, I would definately hang around longer. I don't need some baby boomer looking down their super liberal or ultra conservative nose at me for actually enjoying life. Hope that makes some sense.

[detshen]

Originally Posted by deslok

Part of the reason I left is the bickering. Why sit and listen to it everyday when you don't have to? Other states have great looking views of the beach, amazing trees, whatever else, and also have the benefit of not having the Michigander's present. The midwest is lame for the most part, the rest of the world is just noticing it a bit more. In other states, I don't feel trapped, or bored, or limited by silly thoughts like "I can't do that, I've lived here my whole life" or, "darn right people should get money for their foreclosed mortgage". Ahh, it is so nice to not have to hear it as often.
If I could substitute the people in Michigan for the people in Southern California, Chicago, or even New York city, I would definately hang around longer. I don't need some baby boomer looking down their super liberal or ultra conservative nose at me for actually enjoying life. Hope that makes some sense.

You say you left Michigan because of the complaining then you come to the MI forums filled with criticism. I happen to have friends and family here who are not lame and we enjoy life. I lived in many different places in the country and still love Michigan and never felt the need to trash the state or the people here.

[Cato the Elder]

Originally Posted by TaxBait

It's rather naive to think only manual labor jobs are being exported.

And, while I wouldn't discourage someone from pursuing a degree, I have to agree somewhat with malamute. As a minimum, it's a politician's favorite smokescreen to avoid talking about the real, hard choices that will eventually have to be made. We can't educate ourselves out of a government spending death spiral.

Where did I ever say only manual labor jobs are being exported? Every idiot knows that you call Dell Product Support and you're getting some person in India. But guess what? Tech support is basically a high tech janitor. It doesn't take a degree, just an ability to follow instructions off a screen.

Yes, there have to be sound fiscal policies by the government, but I find WAY too many people here (and particularly in MI) putting too much blame on individuals in government at the expense of personal responsibility. Saying education is a political smokescreen is ridiculous and that your life is terrible ONLY b/c Granholm is in office is a copout. Politicians basically cater to majority opinions anyway. A perfect example is MI losing commitments from alternative energy manufacturing companies setting up shop here DESPITE the fact that MI was rated #1 EVERY factor except one. It was rated the highest for water supply, quality of life, workforce, etc. but failed for having the worst potential market. Why? The state government will not pass a law forcing power companies to commit a percentage of their power generation to water and wind. Why? "Our constituents believe it's a smokescreen." Yep, MI lost out to 26 other states who have passed this law despite outranking them in every other category. The government's fault? Nope, they're doing what they believe their voters want them to do. By the way, Granholm is for this law. We're losing out on what is GUARANTEED to be one of the hottest industries until something like fusion is invented in 500 years. Something that people say will make the auto industry look like peanuts. Talk about shooting ourselves in the foot.

All metrics show that education is your best shot. It's not by coincidence that the US became a world power when education was extended to the masses with the GI bill. For those saying that education will get you nowhere, how do you explain the severe shortage we have in sectors such as nursing, computer programming, medical techs, and engineers. Silicon Valley consistently begs the government to ease visa restrictions to get enough programmers from places like India. There are a slew of jobs in Silicon Valley that are not conveniently shipped overseas that are not filled b/c there are not enough qualified US citizens.

The fact is that we're setting up our kids for failure - playing Playstation and watching American Idol might give kids dreams, but it will not give most of them futures. We're basically third-world now when it comes to encouraging the study of science and math. Don't believe me? Walk around a science or math building at any university in the US. Walk around the engineering deparment of Google or GM. They aren't filled with born and bred Americans. They're filled with the Vincent Chins of the world who get ignorantly beat up by ignorant brutes for having the nerve to do their multiplication tables instead of playing Playstation all day.

[Cato the Elder]

Full disclosure: YES, I am biased as someone who holds a "useless" BS in engineering from MIT, MBA from Wharton, and a Ph.D. from Stanford. How about we compare notes? Let's compare my students who graduate with a BS from Michigan with all the people you know without a degree. I'm sure you'll roll out Bill Gates and other geniuses who didn't finish college. Still, I'll put money on the chances of one of my students getting a great job over someone without a degree EVERY time.