Think hard before you relocate to Michigan (Detroit, Lansing: loans, insurance)

[Cato the Elder]

Originally Posted by summers19

My husband, kids and I travelled to MI this past week. This was the third visit in the last four months as we are trying to still decide whether or not to locate to MI to open up our business. I kind of wish there was no city-data forum as I think this has opened up too many questions for us. Not that we want to stick our heads in the sand, but from what I've seen on all of our visits is that minus the teaching profession, the discrepency seems to be between the blue collar experience vs. the white collar experience within MI. We visited mostly 'white collar' towns...Traverse City, Grand Rapids, Ann Arbor, and Birmingham. Honestly, we didn't witness the doom and gloom that so many posters have written about. Is this a class perception?
Most interesting was Birmingham...I was expecting a doom and gloom atmosphere upon visiting because it's located in SE MI, and to my pleasant surprise, it's a trendy, hip, fun little town. It reminded me a little of Evanston mixed with Winter Park, FL.
On a side note, we noticed that the taxes in MI are VERY low. We live in Virginia where the economy is the best in the country. Our taxes are extremely high (food tax, car tax that we have to pay annually even if our car is already fully paid for, property taxes, liquor tax, state and city taxes). But we don't really mind paying the high taxes b/c we get so much in return (a great booming economy, new schools b/c of the growth, new libraries, a functional state and city government, etc.)
What do Michiganians think about their tax structure? We couldn't believe our food bills or hotel bills...hardly any tax at all. Wouldn't MI start to do better if they raised basic taxes?

You hit the nail on the head, Summers. Isn't it interesting what a little outside perspective will give you? In my experience, there are 4 basic groups that come to this forum divided into the non-residents and residents. There are the vehemently-vocal locals who can't see good in anything MI for whatever reason - they are the ones who state things like, "Birmingham is an overpriced, yuppie, hell-hole." Then there are the few locals on here fighting the good fight by trying to add some perspective - Magellan et al - many in this group like JeffCandace and myself moved here recently and see the same things you do. From the non-resident side, you have people who for whatever reason see the need to take jabs at MI (many are former residents like RedWingFan). Finally, there are those like you with an overall positive mingset who visit and can't see all the "high taxes" and armageddon. Once in a while, you find an "oddball" like AngelBear that doesn't fit neatly into one category, but they rare. The thing to do is observe with your own eyes and take people's opinions with a grain of salt.

[Cliffie]

I'm on break at work and can't read this whole thread, but I think WendiG is 180 degrees wrong warning people away from this great state. Two or three years ago the want ads in every town I looked at were EMPTY. EMPTY. They are still thinner than I like, but they are at least there again.

We need talented, hardworking people who can bring businesses and jobs back to our area. We need FULL-TIME positions with benefits packages, not skimpy retail and fast-food part-time desperation jobs. We need new ways to use those dusty labor skills.

[oldhippieguy]

Come on, there is no growing economy in michigan, every time I talk to people the situation is getting worse.
People are getting laied off every time I check.
The whole country is slipping into a bad place, we are a county that runs on 70% consuming, and now we are tightning the lending, so housing will continue to slow, building will slow. selling homes will slow.
The auto industry is not going to make a come back untill we get a handle on cost, and making small cars that get great millage, detroit is way behind in this area. While the now big three, toyota honda and nisan were making great small cars that get 40 mpg. we were focusing on hummers, esclades and excursions.
Now when they are on top do they sit around like us auto makers and play of their accomplishments? no toyota just came out with a "life time war."
Chrysler just followed, for them it is do or die.
I agree with any one who is thinking of moving here, dont, and if you do, Take a real good look and do not come unless you have a job, or have an income that does not depend on michigan.

[TaxBait]

Originally Posted by summers19

...What do Michiganians think about their tax structure? We couldn't believe our food bills or hotel bills...hardly any tax at all. Wouldn't MI start to do better if they raised basic taxes?

MI does not impose very high tourism taxes. It's a major industry and they seem reluctant to dampen it. We're Michiganders BTW.

Basic taxes are rather high especially on the working poor and lower middle class. Income taxes are flat rate and the personal exemptions are very low. Michigan does not use your federal taxable income so there are no deduction for mortgage interest, medical expenses, etc.

Property taxes are very high for newcomers/home switchers. Several years ago a poorly designed proposal was passed to limit uncontrolled increases. Now there is an extreme disparity between newly purchased homes and those that have been owned for a long time. A recently purchased home might see double the taxes of an identical home that has been occupied by the same owner for 20 years. This distorts the statistics. The Detroit paper recently published statistics showing the property taxes on a median house at $1846. If you purchased the median house today you would most likely see a bill over $3000.
The property taxes embedded in rent are even worse. A non-owner occupied is charged an additional 1/2%. Due to unfortunate circumstances, my parents were forced to buy a rental for my sister or let their daughter and granddaughter grow up in some slumlord’s junk. Property taxes on the tiny $140K home in a not-so-desirable area of Traverse City are $320/month. The market rent would be about $800. Who can blame landlords for not improving their properties when the return is so poor and it might trigger a stiff tax increase?
Assessors are very aggressive here. When I lived in CA and prices fell, all I did was average 3 recent sales and they dropped my taxes - no hassle. Here they've run me up the maximum legal amount every year since I built it despite the fact prices are flat or falling. When I appeal they just spit in my face. They even go through DBA lists nosing around for personal property to tax. I don't put my carpentry tools into my business because the minute I put them on my federal tax returns MI would be after property tax.

And though our auto taxes might seem low compared to some states, our gas taxes are some of the highest in the country. There is also about a $150/year surcharge per vehicle on your insurance. And the personal property tax built into plates, although lower that many states initially, doesn't go down much as the vehicle ages. I finally got rid of our 92 Riviera partially because the license plate amounted to 10% of its value per year. Also, MI taxes rebates and other auto incentives so the net sales tax is often much higher than 6%. I paid 8% on the last 2.

If you are already well off MI has much to offer. It’s really great for rich retirees with the low flat tax and no tax on pensions or social security. You can own a $500,000 yacht and pay practically nothing to register it. But if you are just scrapping by in another state you will definitely be worse off here. That's from a Michigan native who spent 6 years each in CA and CO. My first job took me to CA (couldn't even get an interview in MI with a BS in Physics). Then got transferred to CO. Moved back to MI because of my wife’s deteriorating Multiple Sclerosis and the fact I couldn't build, or afford to have built, a handicapped home in Denver. I knew making a living here would be tough. But I thought building a house for cash (no mortgage) might be enough of an advantage. It’s not. I now make 1/4 what I made in CO but pay more total taxes to the state of MI than I did to CO. I regret moving back. If it weren’t so difficult for my wife to move I had a good job there, I'd be back in CA tomorrow.

[beadante]

I moved to Michigan this year from down South. I have mixed feelings about my move but I can definitely see some things that are good about Michigan, as well as, some of the bad. Good: Nice summers, my friends and family down South are getting scorched. The summer has been pleasant, if a little humid at times. Most of my utility bills are cheaper. Running the A/C in the South is a constant and utilities can be high. I figure I'll make it up this winter with my heating bills though. Michigan is green, has beautiful trees and lakes. Not that the South doesn't have these things, but Michigan has them in abundance. As for the economy, its bad. I personally have a good job and that's nice for me. Also, I rent an apartment so I don't have to worry about mortgages and forecloses. However, even some of my coworkers who make a decent living are having issues with mortgages so I can't say that this isn't a real concern. The most striking thing I've encountered are some of the people here are so negative and have no hope for the future. The roads are horrific, I quite honestly have never seen anything like it. But the things that make me question the move are really related to missing my family and friends, not Michigan. I think Michigan is a nice state, it is obviously suffering at the moment but I wouldn't deter anyone from moving here. I think you just need to really evaluate your priorities and the opportunities available to you. I do think Detroit is scary and wouldn't step foot within city limits for any reason whatsoever, but I felt the same way about parts of Memphis and St. Louis. I will probably stay in Michigan for a year or two but then I will be moving on. Not because I don't enjoy living here but mainly to find employment closer to my family.

[Cliffie]

Originally Posted by oldhippieguy

Come on, there is no growing economy in michigan, every time I talk to people the situation is getting worse.
People are getting laied off every time I check.
The whole country is slipping into a bad place, we are a county that runs on 70% consuming, and now we are tightning the lending, so housing will continue to slow, building will slow. selling homes will slow.
The auto industry is not going to make a come back untill we get a handle on cost, and making small cars that get great millage, detroit is way behind in this area. While the now big three, toyota honda and nisan were making great small cars that get 40 mpg. we were focusing on hummers, esclades and excursions.
Now when they are on top do they sit around like us auto makers and play of their accomplishments? no toyota just came out with a "life time war."
Chrysler just followed, for them it is do or die.
I agree with any one who is thinking of moving here, dont, and if you do, Take a real good look and do not come unless you have a job, or have an income that does not depend on michigan.

But outside Motown, most of the people in this state do NOT depend on the auto industry for their incomes. I never have; and I'll tell you, some of the people in my family who DO depend on the auto industry are doing better than I am. I agree the Big Three are shooting themselves in the foot from several different angles, but we need to get over the collective mourning process, face up to the fact that there is no real cradle-to-grave security for anyone, and MOVE ON. Billy Ford's fate is not mine!

[Cato the Elder]

We just renovated a 1700 sq ft house in Royal Oak and it got reassessed for taxes - we got bumped up to $3k. I don't know, I just don't see the terrible taxes here and I'm a relatively poor professional as an academic. The property tax on my parents' house in the suburbs of Chicago is $12k for a 2400 sq. ft. house (Arlington Heights which is a similar suburb to Royal Oak). They get taxed for their tool shed, breakfast porch, and a privacy wall outside the master bedroom - absolutely ridiculous.

Yeah, it's great to be a long-time resident in a place like CA where you have proposition 13 - it sure would have helped my parents in IL. But where does it leave young people just starting out? As my insurance agent told me as he approaches retirement, it's kind of silly that people his age start to get all the breaks when it's really the 20 and 30 somethings starting families that need all the help they can get! The bottom line is that young people can get their foot in the door in MI. My friends in Chicago with double professional incomes are lucky to buy a townhouse or a "condo" which is in fact a former crappy apartment. The house my parents bought for $125k in 1989 is now $700k. Even if you could buy it, can you pay the taxes?

[Cato the Elder]

I forgot to mention auto insurance. I've had the same car insured in PA, CA, IL, and now MI. Moving from IL to MI, my insurance inexplicably dropped from $1600/year to $800/year AND I got $200 off my homeowners insurance, which was already 50% less than a comparably housed home we owned in PA. I won't even tell you how much my auto insurance cost in PA and CA...I was just glad at the time I didn't live in NJ.

[Bydand]

Cato speaks well on this subject. I was born and raised in Western Michigan and for the last couple of years have been out in Maine. My family and I cannot wait to return next year!! While living in Michigan I thought the same about taxes and fees assessed by the State were high, but after living in a state where the wages are lower and the taxes and cost-of-living is through the roof, I see how nice is is to be home. I took a $15 an hour wage cut when I came to Maine (Electrician) and my wife took a $10 an hour cut (RN). We are just waiting out her contract to end to return to Michigan.

West Michigan for 1150 Kw of electricity usage I paid about $65, here in Northern Maine for 1150 Kw of usage, my bill is $220 and they just approved a 40% rate increase. Car insurance is just about the same, with a very small nod toward Michigan. Property taxes are very, very high here even in a small rural farming community, houses are assessed at around 75% of value so even a $50,000 house is paying between $1000 and $1200 for taxes. $150,000 is closer to $3500. Car registration is a slightly different beast here in Maine, flat registration fee of $25, BUT you have to pay an excise tax every year before you can register that vehicle, newer vehicles are not uncommon at $800+ for excise. On a 99 Suburban mine runs $200, the rate drops a bit every year for I think 10 years, but never drops less than the same vehicle costs to register in Michigan.

I think the nay sayers of the State of Michigan are a bit too close to the situation to have an objective view on how good residents have it really. I know I did. I know most of my family and friends still in West Michigan still don't see how nice it really is compared to other places in the country. I mean even if it isn't all roses and clover, no place is, and I would rather have a tough time paying bills and be able to take the kids to a nice clean beach than have a tough time paying bills and no beach or big water for hundreds of miles.

[Kybound]

Lived in Mi. for 65 years, had a beautiful home on a chain-of-lakes near
Traverse City, had to move due to wife's illness,(can't stand the cold winters)

We are now leaving Fl. due to taxes, insurance, (both car and home) and
looking elswhere in the central U.S.. Believe me, taxes, insurance, utilities,
anything you want to talk about are more reasonable in Mi. than virtually
anywhere else. Perhaps that's a good portion of the cause of the problems