Three Main Problems in Michigan.... (Detroit, Auburn Hills: jobs, sick, house)

[Bluefly]

Originally Posted by One Thousand

"Outside-the-box" thinking actually refers to a given person's limited exposure to ideas. The reality is that no such thing exists relative to the knowledge of mankind. Thinking "outside-the-box" is saying "we're trying to re-invent the wheel." It's re-inventing theories and experimenting with them.

However, the answers are already within our reach and someone else has come up with them: Smith,"The Wealth of Nations."


Change is accomplished by individuals. It's not a matter of "we" need to do this, or "we" need to do that. It's "I" am doing this or that.

This is the cause of Michigan's failure. It's a "we" culture. "We" the union. "We" the government. "We, we, we." So the state enacts legislation for "we." In doing so, the "I's" are burdened with a government that has no faith in the capacity of the individual... Instead favoring the encumbered, risk-averse, potential-limiting organization.


I don't know what status-quo or dead way of life you're referring. I'm hoping for government to get out of business so those of us who have real, tested ideas have enough incentive to continue pursuing our happiness by putting them back into action.

I'm waiting for taxes to drop-- entitlement spending-- so that I don't pay nearly fifty percent of my income to people who do nothing more than sponge off me. I don't think the idea of liberty is dead... it's just under severe, irrational restraint right now.


Again, the culture of Michigan-- and America as time passes-- is the problem. The idea that "we" are doing something. The idea that "we" are in this together. It nourishes dependance and is self-fulfilling... except the only thing that is accomplished is that "we" are together doing absolutely nothing to improve the world around us... "We" just talk...

You speak of Adam Smith like some people speak of Jesus Christ or Mohammed. Put your faith in him and he will set you free!!! You actually had the audacity to suggest that someone else has already come up with all of the ideas and that person is Adam Smith.

You seem to think someone somewhere else has come up with all the important ideas. That is absurd. Perhaps one of those someones is me.

Smith's ideas were brilliant and perfect for a primitive society focused on material growth as its primary objective. Now, as we emerge from our cultural adolescence, we need not physical growth but rather a shift to inward growth. Read philosopher Jacob Needleman's "The American Soul" for insight. In shifting inward, we find your lord and savior Smith's ideas to be woefully inadequate and increasingly destructive.

It is time to evolve beyond the continuum of laissez faire competition and government regulation. In order to do that, we must actually realize that all of life is One. That the many "I"s you want to keep separate are in fact one united "I" comprising all of us. When you experience that firsthand either in a forest (ecology functions on the same principles as economy) or in your own experience running a business, it will all make sense and you too will be ready to emerge from our cultural adolescence.

Until then, you have your capitalist religion and believe any who disagree are wrong and worthy of derision, as you have repeatedly done to me. So, seriously, there's no need to continue this conversation. I know your perspective.

[One Thousand]

Originally Posted by Bluefly

You speak of Adam Smith like some people speak of Jesus Christ or Mohammed. Put your faith in him and he will set you free!!! You actually had the audacity to suggest that someone else has already come up with all of the ideas and that person is Adam Smith.

You seem to think someone somewhere else has come up with all the important ideas. That is absurd. Perhaps one of those someones is me.

It's all just rearrangements of old ideas. Calling it absurd doesn't make it otherwise... but evidence would.

Originally Posted by bf

Smith's ideas were brilliant and perfect for a primitive society focused on material growth as its primary objective. Now, as we emerge from our cultural adolescence, we need not physical growth but rather a shift to inward growth. Read philosopher Jacob Needleman's "The American Soul" for insight. In shifting inward, we find your lord and savior Smith's ideas to be woefully inadequate and increasingly destructive.

You have socialism and you have capitalism. All theories of economics fit somewhere in there.

Smith is as relevant today as he ever was. In fact, Greenspan, in "The Age of Turbulence" just last year spent a lot of time mentioning Smith... and at no point claimed he was outdated.

When you say Smith is outdated, what you're saying is freedom is outdated. (FYI: Smith is concerned about the environment and the poor and sees a need for government to get involved there. I bet you just assumed that wasn't the case?)

Originally Posted by bf

It is time to evolve beyond the continuum of laissez faire competition and government regulation. In order to do that, we must actually realize that all of life is One.

How romantic... Problem is that you'll oppress those who don't wish to be part of "One." I guess if you wanted a play on words, we could say "Oppression is Progressive." However, I'd rather say that oppression isn't progress.

Originally Posted by bf

Until then, you have your capitalist religion and believe any who disagree are wrong and worthy of derision, as you have repeatedly done to me. So, seriously, there's no need to continue this conversation. I know your perspective.

Being a member of a capitalist country, you might venture to read the man's work rather than reject it wholesale.

[Waves5]

It just plain stinks, I have no money to buy a home because really this land belongs to the people from out of town with all the money. No job opportunities and no money to go back to school after all these years to train for something new, my life has become a train wreck in this state. Heck, I can't even live on the streets, they kick me off of state land, so now I am living with a relative and have no resources for anything new and quickly wearing out my welcome. There is something obviously wrong when myself and quite a few people I know have the same scenerio. I'm about to throw in the towel and get a one way ticket out of here and hope for the best.

[Yac]

As the discussion heats up, please remember to respect each other.
Yac.

[UpperPeninsulaRon]

Originally Posted by Waves5

It just plain stinks, I have no money to buy a home because really this land belongs to the people from out of town with all the money.

I read the comment about people from out of town having the money quite a bit in various posts. I assume, for the context of this discussion, that out of town means out of state. Yet I do see a certain objection to the idea of actually trying to spur economic growth in different directions within Michigan. Instead, there still is longing for the good old days, or "why can't it just be like it was in the 1950's"?

I see the out of country trips by Lansing, so why not an internal "whistle stop" series of trips to let Michigan folks in on the opportunities. Why do tax breaks have to go to outsiders? Why is so little pension fund money for the state invested in Michigan companies? So I become confused when people from outside the state see opportunities, are willing to invest, and then are chastised as being "people from out of town with all the money".

There was a post talking about the "we" mentality versus the "me" mentality made before Yac made a plea for calm. There is a lot of merit to the line of thinking. I'm afraid that individuals are sitting around waiting for the collective direction instead of seeking out and starting individual initiatives.

[lichtman]

Michigan has built itself on the auto industry, this can not be argued. It is a state that has not got much to offer that you can not find else where, better beach sites in florida and you can use them year round. Better golf in the carolina's , better skiing in Aspen.
Better economy in most anywhere else.

Now the root of the problem is Oil, Oil and finally Oil.
World oil is peaked out, from Iran who peaked at 6 million a day and now struggles to produce 3, to the usa who peaked in 1970. We have built a society on cheap and available energy.
Some how we in this country think it is our birth right to use most of the worlds energy and live lives that the rest of the world just wants to be like. The problem is we are on the down hill side of the bell curve.
Americans are a stupid people who just want 90 cent a gallon gas, cheap food and a hummer.
We are going to have a life change if we want one or not. I can not believe how selfish the neocons are, they must not give a crap about their children and what kind of world we are handing over to them.
Global warming is just one of the things, Right now there are food riots in Egypt,Mexico,many parts of Asia,Haiti , Even here you do not see much on the Fox noise channel or cnn, but if you look Sam's club and Costco are rationing rice and flower.
I guess when we hit 4 a gallon maybe people will come out of their long sleep and start to get it, I can only hope. We have a long road ahead of all of us, and just wanting cheap energy is not going to make it.
There has not been a big find in over 20 years, the oil the people like Limbaugh talk about in Alaska at its highest est. can only run the usa for a 2 to 4 short years. the oil off the shore of brazil has been thought to be there for many years and just now technology to reach it, even now it will be 10 years before the first bbl hits the market and the oil that comes out will only produce half of what comes out, half of the oil that comes out is the energy it takes just to get it out.
The bush biofuel is taking a toll on corn production and wheat, for the first time in history the usa has to import wheat, yep we now have to import wheat, and rice.
I can not believe people are still trying to make a auto market comeback. Its not going to happen, the auto industry as we know it is dead and we need to shift a gear, every home should have solar power passive and PV cells.
Wind like the turbys in Europe.
The short of it is that the the former big three are not going to make a come back on hummers and 500 hp chargers.
They do not seem to get it, but they will, I have people I know in Chrysler, they said that the inside skuttle is that in 4 years the company will not exist.
We have bigger problems than cars in Detroit. The sooner we get someone in power who will quit telling the low IQ among us that the jobs are coming back and we will be building hummers at a record rate, the better.

[One Thousand]

Michigan has built itself on the auto industry, this can not be argued.

Agreed. However, the decline has been soooo slow, there's no excuse that the economy didn't overcome it.

The domestic manufacturers, suppliers and mills didn't just lay-off everyone in one year. It's been steady for thirty.

I think dependance could be replaced with something that assigns blame.

[Bluefly]

Originally Posted by One Thousand

It's all just rearrangements of old ideas. Calling it absurd doesn't make it otherwise... but evidence would.




You have socialism and you have capitalism. All theories of economics fit somewhere in there.

Smith is as relevant today as he ever was. In fact, Greenspan, in "The Age of Turbulence" just last year spent a lot of time mentioning Smith... and at no point claimed he was outdated.

When you say Smith is outdated, what you're saying is freedom is outdated. (FYI: Smith is concerned about the environment and the poor and sees a need for government to get involved there. I bet you just assumed that wasn't the case?)

How romantic... Problem is that you'll oppress those who don't wish to be part of "One." I guess if you wanted a play on words, we could say "Oppression is Progressive." However, I'd rather say that oppression isn't progress.

Being a member of a capitalist country, you might venture to read the man's work rather than reject it wholesale.

1. I love how you repeatedly assume I haven't read Smith. I have and I know for a fact that his worldview no longer works. There's no correlation between freedom and Smith's view, unless you purely define freedom in the most rudimentary and material sense. Just because Greenspan or any current leader says or believes something means nothing. They are all beholden to the status quo and the way things have been. They, ultimately, do not know.

2. This country was formed of the premise of forming a more perfect union - meaning moving toward a manifestation of the union between all life. If your arm were competing against your liver for nutrients, your whole body wouldn't work very well. Same goes for human and non-human life. Moving toward that union is not about oppressing people not ready to make that move. That certainly would not accomplish much. It is simply about opening a window for people who are ready to evolve to have that opportunity without being bound by the ineffective games of competition and massive government played out by the status quo. It is about doing exactly what you desire - allowing individuals ultimate freedom without the need for government regulation. To do that without destroying ourselves requires evolution and a higher sense of the unity between all life. Only when we recognize that what we do to the least of our brothers, we do to ourselves, will we make the decisions that do not enslave billions in poverty and destroy the environment. I'm a libertarian, ultimately. We're just too young to understand what freedom truly means. You are still locked in this continuum between socialism and capitalism as the only way forward.

To steal a line from Yoda, "There is another."

<whirring engines, red light flash, fade to black...>

[cowcat]

BF just hit the mute button like most of us here. It's really the only way to stop the pontificating as acknowledgement only encourages it.

[One Thousand]

Originally Posted by Bluefly

1. I love how you repeatedly assume I haven't read Smith. I have and I know for a fact that his worldview no longer works. There's no correlation between freedom and Smith's view, unless you purely define freedom in the most rudimentary and material sense.

You've made inaccurate assertions about capitalism. It's pretty clear that you haven't read it.

His worldview no longer works? So, national defense and public education are out-of-step with our modern world? A progressive tax system is no longer the most morally acceptable? The production lines in Asia that are producing our goods doesn't make sense?

And the rest of your post? The subject is problems with Detroit. They tried the route you're touting. The auto workers were united and they chased investment to other countries. The school system is united and they've utterly failed to deliver an educated citizenry even though they're one of the top paid states.

I guess that's my piece.