Are our Unions Hindering or Helping our future? (environment, lawyer)

[tuebor]

Originally Posted by One Thousand

A decade ago? Try half a century ago. Deming, an American, the innovator of the Japanese manufacturing model, offered it to Ford for around $1M in the 50's. They thought it was ridiculous and declined. However, they've been writing about Deming ever since.

The process portion of "rationalizing" domestic manufacturing doesn't even need consultants! Applying the principles advanced by Deming and Smith could be handled by the average line-worker.

I disagree with your assessment as to why American manufacturing has failed. It hasn't. American labor, for the most part, has failed.

This is a red herring. Unions didn't reject Deming, management did -- the same geniuses who in the 70s apparently decided that the way to sell more vehicles was to make crappy cars that would have to be replaced more often. After they lost a huge chunk of their market share to the Japanese and others, they finally started making reliable vehicles again, but they lost a generation of customers who will never go back. It is management who failed, not labor.

[CortlandGirl79]

Originally Posted by malamute

I think you hit the nail on the head. It's not the wages, it's the lack of productivity, inefficiency. It's not about good reliable workers making a decent wage, it's about the worst employees you can imagine being guaranteed a high wage and never being replaced with a dependable worker.

Funny, i just took a tour of the GM Lordstown Plant here in Ohio last Wednesday and i was told it was the most efficient single-line assembly plant in the world........I hope GM's communications guy wasn't lying.

I believe that i read somewhere that Ford recently closed the most efficient plant in North America w/in the last couple years.

Also, i also believe that i read somewhere that hourly wages at GM only make up something like 15% of total costs.

Anyone have any info on these two subjects????

[CortlandGirl79]

Here we go..........

Harbour Consulting

Here are the 10 most efficient vehicle assembly plants in North America based on hours per vehicle in 2006, as rated by Harbour Consulting.


Hours per
Plant vehicle Models Production
1 GM Oshawa No. 2 15.68 Allure, Grand Prix, LaCrosse 188,066
2 GM Oshawa No. 1 16.34 Impala, Monte Carlo 355,430
3 Ford Kansas City No. 1 17.83 Escape, Mariner, Tribute 256,752
4 CAMI 17.85 Equinox, Torrent, LX-7 196,598
5 GM Fairfax 17.89 Aura, Malibu 230,194
6 Honda Alliston No. 1
/East Liberty* 18.82 Civic, CSX, CR-V, Element 437,922
7 NUMMI 19 Corolla, Vibe 257,868
8 Ford Chicago 19.06 Taurus, Sable, Freestyle 157,303
9 GM Lordstown 19.17 Cobalt, G5, Pursuit 278,176
10 Toyota Georgetown No. 2 19.77 Camry, Camry Hybrid 249,402

Doomed Ford and GM plants are judged most efficient - Jun. 1, 2006

Productivity - UAW Bargaining 2007

How did unionized facilities perform in the overall Harbour rankings in 2007?

UAW and CAW members received top rankings in all manufacturing categories:

Three of four Best Plant awards
Seven of 10 most efficient assembly plants
Three of 10 most efficient stamping plants
Seven of 10 most efficient engine plants
Four of five most efficient transmission plants

Lemons out of season in Detroit - CNN.com

[Wiggles603]

lmao

It's funny how people still think they're buying American when they buy from gm. Some of there mufflers have Toyota stamped on them. Not to mention they have stickers on some others that have made in Mexico right on it.

Here is a list I found about how American, cars actually are. Also keep in mind that it includes Canada.

How American is that car? - USATODAY.com

Check out GM, then scroll down and check out the popular Toyota vehicles like Camry, corolla, and tundra. Check out the Ford Fusion, it's supposed to be one of the most reliable cars out by Ford, and it's actually 50% American made and assembled in Mexico, lol.

I live in the Flint, MI area, otherwise known as GM country. It's amazing how stubborn and closed minded these people are. My buddies dad, use to work for gm. He was always afraid of waking up and no longer having a job. Yet, he still insists on buying "American" made Chevy trucks. Sounds like the unions did a lot for job security.

Meanwhile, these evil non-union shops are moving in and creating jobs for us Americans. Wouldn't you know it, those jerks are also paying a fair wage for the kind of work you do.

Basically all your doing by buying one brands car over the other is supporting the company. Your not taking a meal away from an American family

[UpperPeninsulaRon]

Originally Posted by CortlandGirl79

Also, i also believe that i read somewhere that hourly wages at GM only make up something like 15% of total costs.

Anyone have any info on these two subjects????

Let me comment on the cost structure. I do not know if direct labor (basically hourly wages which can be attributed directly to the manufacture of the product) is at 15%, but here are two things that have happened over the past thirty years in the industry that drive it lower.

1) Fewer component plants. At one time the industry made most components at support plants that used direct labor. Now a greater percentage of components are purchased from suppliers who are responsible for the engineering and manufacture and the cost to the automotive assembler is a purchased material cost.

2) Fewer direct labor hours are used than in the past in assembly. For example, at one time there were an army of welders in body assembly. Now most of it is in robotic fixtures that do the welding. Essentially, the company trades direct labor costs for capital equipment costs (a simplification, but overall a true statement).

So I am not sure where you read the number, but it would not be out of the question.

[malamute]

Originally Posted by tuebor

This is a red herring. Unions didn't reject Deming, management did -- the same geniuses who in the 70s apparently decided that the way to sell more vehicles was to make crappy cars that would have to be replaced more often. After they lost a huge chunk of their market share to the Japanese and others, they finally started making reliable vehicles again, but they lost a generation of customers who will never go back. It is management who failed, not labor.

I don't see how the cars from the 70's were so bad because you still see quite a few of them on the roads. In this part of the country, those 78-79 Olds are still working away, I just got rid of a 79 Olds a couple years ago, it was beginning to have problems. I saw a 70 or 71 Maverick the other day -- it didn't look like it was having any problem. I wonder how many foreign made cars will be still running well after 40 years of being driven.

[One Thousand]

Originally Posted by joey71

everyone can speak about how it would be so easy to be at a job for 15 years, then one day be told to take a 30-50% and you would be ok with that RU KIDDING ME, I do not believe that, BLATANT LIE!!!

Of course, because someone doesn't have your base values, they must be lying...

No, nobody would be okay with their income being cut. However, if there was a need to cut wages, atleast the option would be there and the job would still be in MI.

What is the difference between a UAW worker and one in a non-union shop?
They both want to work for a living and need to feed their families.
Both have the same bills that come in monthly to pay, and must be paid.

The difference is that most people in a non-union shop recognize that a job is a blessing; not something owed to them. They don't use phrased like "some people only have two gears: slow and reverse." In a non-union shop, a person doesn't get their choice of OT based on their seniority, but on their ability. In a non-union shop, there isn't a shopwide culture that encourages you to turn your head to drug and alcohol use on the job.

I worked in a couple union shops. I grew up with UAW workers as family and neighbors. I know what your crowd is about.

Originally Posted by tuebor

This is a red herring. Unions didn't reject Deming, management did -- the same geniuses who in the 70s apparently decided that the way to sell more vehicles was to make crappy cars that would have to be replaced more often. After they lost a huge chunk of their market share to the Japanese and others, they finally started making reliable vehicles again, but they lost a generation of customers who will never go back. It is management who failed, not labor.

If they started making reliable cars, then Consumer Reports must have made some mistakes this year.

The reason it's American labor that failed is that we're uncompetitive (hourly wage, labor laws and taxation) with the rest of the world. That's all.

Originally Posted by cortlandgirl79

Funny, i just took a tour of the GM Lordstown Plant here in Ohio last Wednesday and i was told it was the most efficient single-line assembly plant in the world........I hope GM's communications guy wasn't lying.

Overpriced labor forced them to overcome them?

[malamute]

Originally Posted by One Thousand

Of course, because someone doesn't have your base values, they must be lying...

No, nobody would be okay with their income being cut. However, if there was a need to cut wages, atleast the option would be there and the job would still be in MI.



The difference is that most people in a non-union shop recognize that a job is a blessing; not something owed to them. They don't use phrased like "some people only have two gears: slow and reverse." In a non-union shop, a person doesn't get their choice of OT based on their seniority, but on their ability. In a non-union shop, there isn't a shopwide culture that encourages you to turn your head to drug and alcohol use on the job.

I worked in a couple union shops. I grew up with UAW workers as family and neighbors. I know what your crowd is about.





If they started making reliable cars, then Consumer Reports must have made some mistakes this year.

The reason it's American labor that failed is that we're uncompetitive (hourly wage, labor laws and taxation) with the rest of the world. That's all.



Overpriced labor forced them to overcome them?

I think we've moved into a post-union era and people need to realize it. Without the automobile industry many things will change completely.

The labor unions as we know them belonged to a time where industry was big, now it's not. Americans are content to buy cars made in other countries, it doesn't matter if manufacturing was the base of our wealth, it no longer is. What does that leave us?

I think Michigan is too entrenched in the unionist mentality to adapt quickly enough to the reality. Those unions who have gone on strike and closed up desperately needed plants in other areas of the state are putting an end to whatever support they still had out there.

[One Thousand]

Originally Posted by malamute

I think we've moved into a post-union era and people need to realize it.

I think you're right. The goals that really made the union matter, worker protection, have been assumed by the government. It's a dinosaur.

Thanfully, we have the freedom to leave a state that's imploding because the citizenry doesn't accept it.

[Paddington]

The latest round of strikes by the UAW have made me angry as hell. I'm sure I'm not the only one. Maybe the unsilent majority of us who are sick of this **** week after week, seeing our region's economic future being flushed down the toilet need to have our own rally.