[Globusproject]

Originally Posted by Sociologist

Michigan is one of the most interesting places to do a community study. I agree completely that we need a form of supervision that would encompass the actions of our state government. When Granholm says "we are creating Michigan jobs" she means that companies whom which move to Michigan primarily because of tax incentives almost always carry their employees from other states. We dont actually hire employees here, we make our demographics look pretty so other companies will want to jump on the boat. Which incidentally is the exact reason why companies are leaving this little mitten. Why would I want to bring my company to MI when demographics show all our skilled labor, (and most of the 20 somethings with education) are leaving? What were left with is a high average age, loads of retired people who hoard their money made when the big three was alive. How can morality let everything go (knowing well in advance it would) and have no formulation as to how we will rebuild or economic base?

REPLY PART II

Federal Money goes to education at the University of Michigan and then disappears in 19 department "black holes". There is no accountability within the university. And yet they receive Federal money and must assure IT security and process control (Project Management) standards of auditing and security of data. This is also a NO NO. With computers systems of the 21st Century, you won't be able to fudge the numbers when it comes to money. Therefore, you get Federal Money for new IT Systems since January 1, 2006, you have to have security and auditing and process control Federal Standards. To not do it at the University of Michigan means that the FBI comes over there and throws a few of the academics and scientists into Jail so that they can make an example of them. For the Nation. As Confucious said "A word to the wise is sufficient".

All levels of state government, with the introduction of sophisticated computer systems since 2005 should measure where the money goes and the performance of the agency. Therefore you can manage better, because you have better numbers and you can prevent the disappearance of money because you can't go back and find out who put it into the system and who edited it. And if there is a question, then you can go back and audit the IT systems. So putting in new IT Systems would be a great thing in the academic, scientific research (Federal Grants) and the educational K-12 industries. You would also implement a system of accountability.
The Federal Government requiring the States to conform to Federal IT standards according the security and auditing will make sure that State money is tracked and accounted for.

So these industries are not ripping off the rest of us. This is a very good thing about Information Technology. When you implement it correctly, you can find out where the money is going.

So that leaves only the Healthcare industry and the legal industry to control with IT and security/audit standards. Healthcare is going to be tackled in the near future. But is seems that no one is putting controls on the legal profession and making their processes accountable to the public.

As to Jennifer she didn't address how we were going to fund these new ideas of hers. Funding PreK-12 education, scientific research and the academic world is nice, but where are we going to get the money???

We are already going on $800 million deficit. Where comes the rest of the money???

Raising taxes is out of the question.

Tax abatement is the word, tax incentives is what? Giving taxes to people who move here??? Abatement means you don't tax the companies that move here. Incentives are for individuals, which is a good thing, but only after you have full employment. Then you can also lower personal taxes, also.

Hopefully, Jennifer thinks that she can finance the PreK program by efficiences in the procurement section of the K-12 education system- by procurement by scaling up to larger sizes of purchase programs. At the county level. And asking the cities to work together to cut costs by them buying in larger quantities for a larger geograhical area. Economies of scale. Good idea. Hope it finances the PreK programs.

Higher academic standards in K-12 is a great idea. And it doesn't cost much. If anything.

[Globusproject]

Originally Posted by Sociologist

How can morality let everything go (knowing well in advance it would) and have no formulation as to how we will rebuild or economic base? Conspiracy theory! Lets wipe out the working class, and create a barrier 20 miles wider between the middle and upper classes. We'll keep welfare and the perpetuating system of dependence so we wont loose anymore people. We'll narrow our special interests so we have ease in controlling what type of labor we want in michigan, oh and we'll also take away the pleasure of having recreation affordable by making camping and other activities almost impossible to afford. At the same time we'll make public education obsolete by making prospective teachers change their mind about what they study in college. Hell we'll make it impossible to afford college. And in 20 years when the economic base has "Shifted" again, we'll conjure more reasons to bring it down again.

REPLY PART III

Again, I can't see where she is going to get the money to pay for free education for the next three years. But overall this is a good thing. If we can get the 10-20% of the population without skills sets to obtain them, then we can remove many payments for unemployment and welfare and cut spending at the State level in this manner.

A note: When Jennifer speaks of creating new jobs, she is speaking about creating new jobs in new industries. Through the Michigan Economic Development Corporation (MEDC). She wants that we are the leaders in newly developed industries. Such as different energy use, instead of being dependent on oil. Michigan is well positioned for this. We have good research and development in these areas.

She has tried to do this in the areas of Biotechnology (UofM Dr. Brian Athey), Proteomics (U of M, Dr. Andrews) and Nanotechnology (CMU), but since every State is trying to do the same thing, and we started late, we are not gaining the jobs that we would like with new industry creation. In the new energy source industry, we are much better placed. We compete in getting Federal Grants for the National Centers for Biomedical Computing (NCBC) in Biotechnology. But we are solely lacking in advanced management skill sets in these areas. Project Management at the Strategic and especially the Tactical levels. In Nanotechnology at CMU we are one of the top 6 Universities. Michigan is a great place for higher level education. Trust me on this. We compete with Stanford and Columbia U. Easily. Just that Ann Arbor is a little too arrogant for many of us's tastes!!! :-)

Education is the means to get the unskilled (working classes) into the middle class. This is the wonder of the USA. We are mobile and highly educated. This is the middle class. So Jennifer is doing well to promote education. Just takes 10 years to get thing corrected. She is right when she says we have 4 years. We needed to do this 5 years ago. The 10 years or so that it takes to re educate an aging population- 1/2 a generation.

But these new industries take years to develop. And the unemployment problems are today. So education of the unskilled and unemployed would be the answer for the next three years so as to make the transition. And into healthcare also. All good ideas.

You got it. Life is dyanmic. We will have to change again and again. This is what project managers do. Implement change, Continuous Process Improvement and Radical Innovative Change. Jeffifer wants to change industries. To Create industries. She dreams big. But this is good. Even if she only gets 1/2 of her dream, we will be competitive with other States. But implementing project managemet offices at the middle management level to be able to manage to scale, in academia, education and scietific research is just where the problem is. These groups don't want to give up power and control to outsiders (M.D.'s and Lawyers either). It is a management nightmare to transfer power from these groups to professional project managers. This is the problem that Jennifer is proposing. Managers of these areas/industries giving up power to Project Managers to implement change at the tactical organizational level- procurement, integration and performance management areas. She has to overcome the resistance to change. This is where we will see if she can implement these types of programs.

As usual, Michigan must get over the hump of a bad period. But we have done this before and we will succeed. Jennifer has a pretty good plan for the future. It is in the implementation that is the trick. I hope that it works, if only 1/2 so, it would be great if it does. Tax, tax, tax is NOT the solution to everything. Jennifer has chutchzba. She has balls. She is trying to create new industries. Where we are the creators and therefore the leaders. Wonderful chess game. My hat is off to her. I hope it works, for Michigan.

[tuebor]

I support the Granholm administration because Granholm and Lt. Gov. John Cherry "get it". They understand that investment in our state's human capital is the only way to move forward.

I, for one, am willing to pay higher taxes to support that vision, although I think what our state needs is a progressive income tax (which unfortunately would require an amendment to the state's constitution). Despite our state's woes, some people in Michigan are doing very well, and they ought to contribute more. (The Grand Rapid Press reported record numbers of sales of homes priced over $1,000,000 last year.)

In the last 30 years we've witnessed an outrageous widening of the gap between the rich and poor, record trade deficits, record spending on political campaigns, etc. Instead of spending our resources on obscene executive salaries and frivolous consumer items produced in near slave-labor conditions in the 3rd world, we should be spending it on the genuine needs of our people, such as education and healthcare. If that means higher taxes, then so be it.

[Siberia]

Originally Posted by ejbx2

About six years ago, I left all my family and friends back in Michigan, and although I miss them, it was worth it. Unlike many others, my wife and I had good paying jobs so it was not the economy that forced us out. It was the fact that it is so cold, grey, and depressing. When I lived in Michigan, I was one of many that I know of who suffered depression and anxiety. Since moving my depression is gone and my anxiety attacks are held to a minimum. It took a couple of years to get that out of my system, but since I moved I feel much healthier. It makes a huge difference when you can go outside and play with your kids all year long.

I've noticed that those who lived in MI all their life are typically glass half full on the weather, and those that import are more the opposite. If you don't know what you are missing, MI winters won't affect you as much....

Fact of the matter is that MI gets 40-50 less days sun than the national average, and the cloudy days occur mostly in winter...along the lines of one day sun to 8-10 cloudy. The length of winter is 6-7 months (mid Oct- mid May it can snow in Oct or May...seen that multiple times, although rare). Spring (Mid may leaves on trees full bloom) and Fall are virtually nonexistant. Summers are perfect...low humidity, 80ish temp ranges...yet 3-4 months maximum in length.

[Siberia]

Originally Posted by tuebor

I, for one, am willing to pay higher taxes to support that vision, although I think what our state needs is a progressive income tax (which unfortunately would require an amendment to the state's constitution).

Yeah, progressively tax all those "rich folks" who make more than $50K per year... Why should the average citizen and state government have to decrease their spending on services and become more efficient, when we can just keep taxing "them there rich folks"...you know, the ones who have a couple of kids they never see because they are both wage slaves attempting to pay off their $150,000 in college loans at 9% interest! Lets go gettum...and hittum hard with 8-10% state taxes until they all flee our state for another!

Originally Posted by tuebor

Despite our state's woes, some people in Michigan are doing very well, and they ought to contribute more

Yeah, espeically all those idiots NOT buying/leasing new SUVS and trucks they can't actually afford every year...sock it to them for saving their money! Lets go get the folks who live below their means...I say we find the 10% of citizens who have a savings account over $20,000 and take 50% of their money immediately. They don't need it, as they are not living pay check to pay check like those of us with 3 new Harleys, a 35 foot boat we use 3 days per year, and those other "absolute necessities of 'du' American Dream". Oh and don't forget someone needs to pay for my medical bills too because I love to smoke, eat too much, and hate to exercise to keep fit. Someone needs to pay for all my uneducated and often times irresponsible choices that I have made, and will continue to make, as consequences simply don't exist to stop me....


Face it until the society is forced economically to make smarter and more educated life choices, there is simply no tax increase large enough to keep this train wreck going off the inevitable cliff called "fiscal reality"...

[michiganmoon]

Tuebor,
Good name! It's not a bad state motto.

[michiganmoon]

"The length of winter is 6-7 months (mid Oct- mid May it can snow in Oct or May...seen that multiple times,"

I was born on a day at the very end of April and it was snowing!

[Wabbit]

Originally Posted by Siberia

The length of winter is 6-7 months (mid Oct- mid May it can snow in Oct or May...seen that multiple times, although rare). Spring (Mid may leaves on trees full bloom) and Fall are virtually nonexistant.

Do you live in Michigan?
What do you mean spring and fall are virtually nonexistant?
Michigan is considered to have the four most well defined
seasons of any state in the Union. (Because of the Lakes)
And since when does winter start in October?
I played golf all through January, does that mean we can
consider that summer month now?

[Siberia]

Originally Posted by Wabbit

Do you live in Michigan?
What do you mean spring and fall are virtually nonexistant?
Michigan is considered to have the four most well defined
seasons of any state in the Union. (Because of the Lakes)
And since when does winter start in October?
I played golf all through January, does that mean we can
consider that summer month now?

What people fail to recognize in Michigan is the wind speeds, and subsequent "wind chill...aka feels like" true temperature. Let me ask you this, how many times have you not had to wear a coat of some type for at least a few days in the month of May and the Month of October? Yes 50s might not be so bad if the wind wasn't averaging 8-12mph. The wind is the issue, especially in the winter. In the summer, the wind makes the climate even better...June to September...

As far as nonexistant seasons, sure the leaves come and go in spectacular colors...but the amount of time in which such transitions occur is amazingly short due to the shock of going from summer to winter so quickly. If you look at a monthly mean temperature plot for most of Michigan, it looks like an inverted "U". Areas 300 miles further south and more do transition slower...

As far as your ability to play golf during a Michigan January, on average that would definately not be normal. Per the normal temperature tables between 1971 to 2000 for the second largest city in Michigan (Grand Rapids), the average maximum temperature and average minimum temperature for December through February was 32 to 18 degrees F respectively. The mean temperature was 26 degrees F. Thus considering Michigan a January golfing state with mean winter temps at 26 deg F, and a wind speed of 8-12mph average...that would seem a stretch. Michigan has alot of positives, but January Golf just ain't one of them...

And of course when Michigan has wind gusts of 20-30 mph like this past week, wind chills fall to -15 to -30 below...

[tuebor]

Siberia, I think you must have had someone else in mind when you responded to what I said. Our positions are not as far apart as you seem to think. Let's put the straw men away and talk seriously.

I don't know why you suppose that I consider people who make over $50k/year "rich" when the only specific figure I mentioned in my earlier post had to do with $1M+ houses. People who buy those properties make a lot more than $50k/year.

And where do you get 8-10% income tax? If that were applied across the board, that would be more than double the current rate and far more than we need to balance the budget. Look on the back of your tax state tax form booklet. It says that the state took in $6B in income taxes last year. The state now projects a $3B deficit. Doubling income tax revenues with no other budgetary changes would therefore yield a $3B surplus--nobody is proposing any such thing.

I would be very surprised if income tax revenues were raised by more than 10% or so in the next year. There will be cuts, consolidations, and other kinds of tax increases to address the budget problem; income tax hikes will be just one part of the plan. But let's suppose that income taxes are raised 20% overall for the sake of argument. That would raise the rate from 3.9% to 4.68% under the current structure. If we went to a progressive scheme (which, again, would require a constitutional amendment), then people making around $50k would probably pay less than that, since higher income brackets would pay more. But I see no reason to suppose that even the highest brackets--the ones who buy those $1M houses, not the "wage slaves"--would get as high as 8% (unless they actually lower the rates for the rest of us). And they're not going to flee the state. They're making good money here, and the jobs or enterprises that earn them that kind of money won't necessarily be found elsewhere.

Now, about some of the other cases you mentioned:
If a couple has $150k in college loans, maybe there is not enough aid to students, due to irresponsible tax cuts (or maybe they should have attended public universities instead of private). If they're paying 9%, then they got hosed by private lenders. A discussion of the way private lenders have exploited federal guaranteed student loan programs for huge profits would be off-topic, so I'll just say that those profits ought to be taxed fairly, and those interest rates are too high (actually, anyone paying 9% should look into refinancing).

If a couple never sees their kids because they both work, well, why is that? There was a time when the salary of one educated or skilled adult could support a middle-class lifestyle--home ownership, a car, college for the kids (briefly, this was attainable even for factory workers). Why does it now take two? Why have middle incomes stagnated over the past 30 years while the rich have gotten richer, and whose policies have accelerated these trends? Do generous tax cuts for the top tax brackets have anything to do with it? Do cuts for services to middle and lower incomes, like support for education, have anything to do with it?

As for saving vs. spending, Siberia, I do not share your evident contempt for average working people, but I do share your contempt for conspicuous consumption. If people can afford to buy 3 Harleys and a boat they use 3x/year, then they can afford to pay higher taxes to send Michigan kids to college. But smokers and others who are careless or negligent about their health are not the only ones who need affordable healthcare.

The question with taxes is not how much we pay, but what we're getting for our money. Compared to other states, Michigan has a well-run state government, relative to the challenges it faces. And think: suppose your state taxes go up $400 this year. Well, if you've got kids that will be going to college, they'll be getting $4000 each from the new scholarship program. Would you cut the new scholarship to avoid the tax increase?

Finally, Siberia, you mentioned uneducated and irresponsible choices, and society being "forced economically" to make better choices. Granholm's opponents' knee-jerk, Pavlovian reaction against any suggestion of new taxes is truly uneducated and irresponsible. Don't be taken in by simplistic anti-tax rhetoric. Economic reality now forces us to invest in our people, especially in the form of more extensive and intensive education as we retool for the new economy. The good news is that it's an investment that will pay for itself.