How bad do you think MI really is? (Detroit, Warren: relocation, house)

[Siberia]

Originally Posted by tuebor

Don't be taken in by simplistic anti-tax rhetoric. Economic reality now forces us to invest in our people, especially in the form of more extensive and intensive education as we retool for the new economy. The good news is that it's an investment that will pay for itself.

I tend to take a complicated view of things myself, not exactly one who follows bumper sticker herd mentality sort of thinking...along the lines of "simplistic anti-tax rhetoric".

I agree that education is extremely important to solve the issues, but even that won't even begin to show much return on investment for at least 5-10 years. The problem I have with taxing businesses and individuals with the new service tax is the fact that throwing money at schools simple won't fix the real issues. It is very similar to a doctor throwing a temporary solution at a depressed patient...give them a drug, problem solved. Instead of the doctor helping the patient find the root cause of the depression, and thus possibly eliminating the costly drug band aid (that could actually cause more issues than it solves...think "Vioxx")...the doctor knows the simple answer is to instantly please the patient by giving them the drug they seen on TV and then rush the patient out the door after spending 5 minutes diagnosing them and charging $378... Basically tossing money at the current school system is no better than tossing Prozac at a depressed patient and proclaiming "YOU ARE HEALED!".

First off, the whole tenure idea of high school teachers is funny to say the least. Tenure was invented by university professors to ensure that controversial papers and teaching tactics did not get them fired. Somehow, this is applied in a high school arena where all teachers can become "super unionized" and thus bulletproof towards getting fired for lack of teaching skills. Dumping tenure would be a start, or at least having a review system that wouldn't allow teachers tenure unless they're performance, and not "time on the job", warranted such drastic protection mechanisms.

Second, the idea of "Here first, last to be fired" is a joke. What public or private company anymore says that the last hired is the first fired? Why would a school system elect to remove a better teacher who happened to be recently hired versus one that had "been there" for 20 years? Logical..no way. Another perk to promote mediocrity...

Third, why does it now cost tax dollars per student than what a small university charges per student for tuition? Yes, apples to apples (college tuition, not room and board, etc)...college is now on par cost wise with our public high schools. Amazing...yet we toss more money at a system that already costs more because "it is for our children"....about as illogical to calling someone a traitor if they don't agree with a war. Bumper ticker shock treatment that always seems to work. Toss money and all will be better...for the sake of the kids...

Fourth, why to kids get the entire summers off? Do you realize that this was invented decades ago to allow farmers to have their laboring force kids help pick the crops? Now in a modern society, this is nothing but a complicated, spoil producing perk that costs society much more than simply keeping kids in school year round and getting them through the system much earlier. Teachers could work a full year instead of 3/4s...and that $40K/year starting salary would still be good in Michigan. And students could save their parents daycare and other misc costs by keeping their kids consistantly in school. While we are at it, why not provide work opportunities year round for kids 13 years old and older, that would be during school hours. Thus instead of playing Xbox and gabbing on the phones, students could do their part by donating 10% to the general school fund and providing themselves a huge head start towards paying for a college education. Blasphemy, cruel, and total punishment for "today's kids" I know, but there is not reason older kids should have the three months off during summer to goof off...and the younger kids would probably enjoy staying in school more than the alternatives as they actually enjoy learning and having fun. You have to admit it is kind of funny how Americas hold on to things and never let go...no matter if the need still exists or not. Sort of like what will happen once the 2% service tax isn't needed...it will be kept anyhow to fund a new service that the government couldn't have afforded before...perhaps free life time car washes if you buy a new car???

[Siberia]

---Unfortunately Continued... ---

Now if the Gov stated in her review that she was going to make major changes to the current school systems AND THEN tossed extra money toward them, I would have been the first to say great job, and would gladly pay extra taxes. And when I say "major changes", I mean start by schools competing with each other like every other private company must do. Break the state linked school system apart and make the principles into "CEOs", who have real power to make real changes, else they will go bankrupt as the students flock to a better education 10 miles down the road. Give them the power, money, and backing to make whatever changes they please...but hold them completely accountable if they fail (no tax revenue!) Let the parents and students vote with their feet...and let competition and fear of closing and loosing their job drive the employees to do what is needed to make things happen immediately. More stick, less carrot...less emotional feel good thoughts...


Enough about that...as you can see, not a simplistic approach. Although I really do wish I looked at things more simplistic, as that would be pure bliss to my soul to pretend all is great if simply enough money is tossed at a broken situation.


Siberia

P.S. Here is an idea...once the Gov cuts her pay 10% to show that everyone must suffer, and cuts the pay of all officials 10% too...then I'll take her more serious. Yet instead the government is immune to the new 2% service tax, along with the school systems??? Now does this provide more discipline to two already fiscally frivolous structures?

P.S.S. And once the Gov sells off the "summer vacation" McMansion on Mac Island and uses the proceeds to help pay off the deficit, then I'll be impressed...

[Siberia]

Originally Posted by Globusproject

Again, I can't see where she is going to get the money to pay for free education for the next three years. But overall this is a good thing. If we can get the 10-20% of the population without skills sets to obtain them, then we can remove many payments for unemployment and welfare and cut spending at the State level in this manner.

It is one issue to give those who don't work the education to work, it is another issue go get people who don't work to actually want to work. It is human nature to become compliant, when not forced by internal or external forces of mind or body to become an income producing and responsible citizen. Not only educational job skills need to be provided, but social skills, budgeting techniques, tax accounting, loan basics, etc. Teaching someone to swing a hammer is only half the solution in providing a substainable, intelligent society...

[tuebor]

Siberia, the school reforms you suggest might or might not improve the *quality* of education, but they wouldn't necessarily make education significantly *cheaper*, and so would not solve the budget issue.

We have a school system that is designed to educate most students only through grade 12 at public expense. If we want move to a school system in which the majority of students continue for at least two years beyond high school at public expense, that's going to be more expensive, no matter how efficiently and effectively it is run. K-14 costs more than K-12. We aren't going to pay for those extra two years by getting teachers to take voluntary pay cuts.

[southernlady5464]

Originally Posted by Globusproject

The only thing you can do is to find out the prices that the houses are selling in your area and discount your house 5% below the lowest price, if you want to sell. If you don't do it now, you may have to discount the sale price of the home 10% next year when there are more houses on the market.

Or you can wait 4 or 5 or more years until the market turns around.

Good luck with the house though.

Thanks but we do not have that long to wait. Hubby has a job in NC and we will be moving there by summer. IF we don't sell in another 3 months, the company he will be working for buys it from us. We are already priced $35,000 below what we owe on the house.

Originally Posted by Globusproject

We have four seasons and therefore we are very happy when things are warm, because we remember when it was 25 degrees below zero last Winter. We are very happy when we have the sun and we try to soak up as much Vitamin D as we can during our two or three months of warm sunny days. We have a Spring with a good warming rain that causes the lakes to fill and the plants and flowers to blossom. Michigan in the springtime is beautiful, with the Springtime growth of the flowers and the trees.

Michigan has the most beautiful Falls when the leaves are changing colors. Beautiful golds and reds and oranges that are something few other Americans know. We have Maple Syrup and Apple Cider. We have Blueberries and Black Bears. We have very good fruit production in this State. We even have some decent wine production. We produce a lot of sugar and potatoes and corn and have a good farming ability. We have mines and we have trees. We can develop these industries if the price of their production is not too high. If not, we can wait until the other developers of trees or ore run out and then we can develop ours at a later date. But trees are renewable and we should be farming our trees, if there is a market for them. We have so much wildlife and game that most farmers have to fill their freezers full of deer so as to have some of their crops for harvest.

We have waterfalls and lakes and lighthouses and sandy beaches with driftwood on the sandy beaches.

We have green forest trails and all types of pretty birds and interesting animals. We have the ferocious Wolverine. And oppossums, skunks and other rodents, including beavers. And green ferns and funny little green frogs.

We have an abundance of rivers and flowing streams that gurgle and ease out to our wonderful Great Lakes.

We have trout and salmon and an abundance of Natural Resources that have been well managed by our DNR.

The water is some of the best tasting water in the world.

Sounds like NC to ME!!!

Granted, NC doesn't get AS blasted cold but for someone who now has arthritis in their spine, MI is too cold for TOO LONG (this year was an exception to that rule)

And a beach is one attached to an ocean not a lake even one as big as Lake Michigan or Erie. Lakes have shores not beaches. Liz

[southernlady5464]

Originally Posted by Wabbit

Do you live in Michigan?
What do you mean spring and fall are virtually nonexistant?
Michigan is considered to have the four most well defined
seasons of any state in the Union. (Because of the Lakes)
And since when does winter start in October?
I played golf all through January, does that mean we can
consider that summer month now?

I DO live here and this state has three seasons, winter, the month of August and ROAD construction season.

Seriously, winter here in my area started in October THIS year cause it started snowing! Then we had a mini-spring in late Dec/Jan.

I prefer to see flowers come up in late Feb/early March, NOT late May. Liz

[fuzion79]

You want my advice? Leave. Give your family, especially your kids a better life. I lived on the east coast most of my life, both in Boston and New York(and plan on leaving within the next 6-8 months to go back), and I have to say that those places were infinitely better than Michigan. Here's why:

1. Economy. Michigan has been losing jobs since 1999-2000 and is STILL losing jobs. And not just in the automotive sector. Pfizer just shut down in Ann Arbor...and Ann Arbor is one of the few places in this state that has something of an economy going. Compuware decided to give Detroit a chance and guess what? They're posting losses. Why? Because they're in Detroit. People still haven't figured out how to diversify the economy. What I mean by that is that the only thing here is the automobile industry...and thats going to hell fast. They decide literally everything! No one stands up to them...especially the "government" of the state. No centers for research or finance or even a good information technology sector. Its impossible to do business here. They still haven't found an effective way of replacing the single business tax, or repealing it altogether. Foreclosures are at an all time high....I see people putting up House For Sale signs on my block all the time now.

2. The City of Detroit. What can I say? An absolute dump. And for all the staunch defenders of the city who have "DEEETROIT Pride", put a sock in it. I've seen better cities that are WORTH having pride in. Its a dump, pure and simple. Absolutely no effective public transportation system to connect the city and metro area. When I say public transportation system, I don't just mean those crappy busses(and they're cutting those off too). I mean a subway and a railway line which connects the city and the suburbs. The "People Mover" is a piece of crap. The monorail at Epcot Center does a better job of "moving people". How can you get businesses up and running inside of a city if you can't move a whole lot of people from one place to another within a short period of time? Thats what a train system does. These are some of the hallmarks of successful cities like New York, Boston and Chicago....a great train system. Not everyone can drive...either because they can't afford a car, or they can't afford the parking, or they can't bear the headache...or a combo of all three. The whole city is run down...buildings decaying everywhere, unkept lawns. No one even cares to do anything about it.

3. The People. In the metro Detroit area, the people are lazy, rude and arrogant. Blacks hate the whites, whites hate the blacks. Get over it losers. This is the most segregated state in the northern United States. Unionist mentality. Hostility...especially noticeable within the last 5-7 years. Now for all the rudeness of someone from Boston or New York, they at least have some spirit, some life....to balance all that out. Here its a double whammy...rude, lazy, depressing, boring and arrogant. Thats a "Michigander" for you.

Thats about it. The winter here sucks, but I can bear it. Its those above reasons that are most crucial. This is a very bizarre state indeed...zero sense of direction. Zero spirit of innovation or hope. And for all the "DEETROIT PRIDE" they have done a poor job of showing it. Just look at the physical condition of the city infrastructure for proof of this. You won't see this anywhere else. Go to NYC..or Boston, or even California for that matter. It'll hit you like an electric shock. The hope, the sense of direction, the focus....the exposure to all sorts of wonderful, different things. They have their problems...no doubt. But NOTHING like this. Nothing. As for a "turnaround"...forget it. The riots happened in Detroit in 1967. They had 40 YEARS to rebuild! They STILL have not done it. Chicago had riots...they rebuilt. Look at them now....thriving. Yeah, get out...and the best of luck to you and your families in your new lives.

[George670]

I like the city of Detroit proper and disagree with the poster who says it is a dump. He probably hasn't spent any time there. There are lots of depressed areas, but downtown is being revitalized and there are still some good neighborhoods.

that said, I moved here from San Francisco about 2 years ago. While I think the city of Detroit is kind of cool, I find the suburbs and rest of the state to be almost unlivable. I can't quite put my finger on it, but there is something very wrong with this place and its people.

You should get out if you can. Unfortuantely, I am stuck here for at least a while.

[Southernnight]

Do these people live under a rock or WHAT?!

I live in MI at the moment, however, I'm from NC. I have never heard the most stupid questions that I get asked by the folks in MI. I really have to wonder about their education level in this state. The people here are very closed minded and seems to me they have only tunnel vision. At least the people I deal with anyway. I can't say that everyone in MI is like that. Anyway, they have this attitude like MI is the greatest place on the planet to live and god forbid if you tell them otherwise. And the ones that say that, are the ones that are broke and their lives are going no where. Just like this place, GOING no where.

[begorra]

This post is always at the top of the pile.
As someone looking at this site for the past couple of months to gain info about an offer to work in MI & relocate from Europe to MI, this is a scary thread.
As a complete impartial outsider the nature of the attacks on the state you live in seem very negative and centred around one city Detroit. Surley one city should not blacken a state?