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Old 02-13-2007, 06:25 PM
 
Location: Home of the Blockhouse Races
3,093 posts, read 6,398,728 times
Reputation: 3011

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Quote:
This post is always at the top of the pile.
And every time someone replies to it, good or bad, it goes to the top again. If people want to let it die, stop replying to it. Liz

 
Old 02-13-2007, 09:25 PM
 
Location: Old west side, Ann Arbor, MI
689 posts, read 1,551,354 times
Reputation: 274
Default Wow, Michiganders are what?

Okay........... I have lived in this state for 24 years and have seen the devastation that is currently unraveling. Truth be said we all can discuss the negativity among MI residents and thousands of other things in this state for that matter. Maybe their are a number of people that are sold on the thinking of our economy changing, and want to stay until the last house goes up for sale. True we have a lot of fat sad and poor individuals but that is THEIR choice to stay, and THEIR choice to not better their lives through education and relocation. People make the world what it is today, if 10,000 people say something is bad it must be right? Or if Jen Granholm says we will see a turn around then it MUST be happening right? Muckraking and investigative people have lost their courage to unveil the true problem in this state because the voice of the people does nothing to create jobs, safer neighborhoods, or few public services. Again and again we will be sold comical solutions to a problem in this state that is even mind boggling to leaders whether by our current governess or future ones that will be dealt the same hand, a straight up battle. The state WANTS people to feel at home, at ease and be ignorant of current trends, as long as it does not interfere with their agenda. The more people we loose the less likely any company will ever want to come here, and with Chrysler saying bye to 10k employees I cant imagine anything that will happen. Bottom line, there IS a reason for the negative drum blasted away, because the few who can say they aren't worried about their job and are also starting to see their island of wealth and security wash away from beneath their feet. IS it the point of people on this string to scare potential incomers? Probably not, but why would you care if your job had nothing to do with manufacturing, or was connecting to Automotive in any way. I wouldn't, I would stay but my family cant either. Yes, a positive topic is always welcomed, we just haven't seen a positive Michigan for a long time. Some will be loyal and wait for governing powers to help, others cant survive in their current situation, and a lot live off the state and could care less about anyone else's welfare, so someone burn the negative drum, but someone else will start beating it again.
 
Old 02-14-2007, 08:23 AM
 
Location: Grand Rapids Metro
7,274 posts, read 11,122,017 times
Reputation: 2570
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sociologist View Post
Okay........... I have lived in this state for 24 years and have seen the devastation that is currently unraveling. Truth be said we all can discuss the negativity among MI residents and thousands of other things in this state for that matter. Maybe their are a number of people that are sold on the thinking of our economy changing, and want to stay until the last house goes up for sale. True we have a lot of fat sad and poor individuals but that is THEIR choice to stay, and THEIR choice to not better their lives through education and relocation. People make the world what it is today, if 10,000 people say something is bad it must be right? Or if Jen Granholm says we will see a turn around then it MUST be happening right? Muckraking and investigative people have lost their courage to unveil the true problem in this state because the voice of the people does nothing to create jobs, safer neighborhoods, or few public services. Again and again we will be sold comical solutions to a problem in this state that is even mind boggling to leaders whether by our current governess or future ones that will be dealt the same hand, a straight up battle. The state WANTS people to feel at home, at ease and be ignorant of current trends, as long as it does not interfere with their agenda. The more people we loose the less likely any company will ever want to come here, and with Chrysler saying bye to 10k employees I cant imagine anything that will happen. Bottom line, there IS a reason for the negative drum blasted away, because the few who can say they aren't worried about their job and are also starting to see their island of wealth and security wash away from beneath their feet. IS it the point of people on this string to scare potential incomers? Probably not, but why would you care if your job had nothing to do with manufacturing, or was connecting to Automotive in any way. I wouldn't, I would stay but my family cant either. Yes, a positive topic is always welcomed, we just haven't seen a positive Michigan for a long time. Some will be loyal and wait for governing powers to help, others cant survive in their current situation, and a lot live off the state and could care less about anyone else's welfare, so someone burn the negative drum, but someone else will start beating it again.
Quick question sociologist:

Does the recent announcement by Chrylser to lay off 10,000 people have anything to do with Granholm, or Michigan's environment? Remember these are salaried workers, not UAW employees, and Chrysler's U.S. market share dropped from 13.4 to 12.9% last year.

Does Pfizer's failure have anything to do with Granholm, or Michigan? Remember, Pfizer lost some major patents and blew it big-time on their latest blockbuster drug.

Did Electrolux's move from Greenville to Mexico have anything to do with Michigan? Remember, in Juarez Mexico, the workers there earn about $1.50 - 2.00/hour.

The answer is No.


If you think everyone is glossing over the economic situation in Michigan, you seriously need to pick up a newspaper. Granholm announces the creation of 500 jobs here, 100 jobs there, 200 jobs over there, because she has no choice. I'm sure she knows full well that she's being held personally accountable for the 300,000+ manufacturing jobs lost in the state.

For those who have a decent job and are doing OK (which there are millions in Michigan who are), why in the world would you think about putting your home on the market when it's in a slump? Buy low, sell high. Not the other way around. Economic cycles ebb and flow. As values go down, investors move in and buy at greatly discounted prices. And if you sell here now and move to a currently hot market (which there are fewer and fewer these days), it's a double whammy. You get undervalued on your home sale, and pay overvalue on the home you buy. There are always winners and losers in every economic cycle. Don't join the losers club.

Last edited by magellan; 02-14-2007 at 08:32 AM..
 
Old 02-14-2007, 09:03 AM
 
Location: Old west side, Ann Arbor, MI
689 posts, read 1,551,354 times
Reputation: 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by magellan View Post
Quick question sociologist:

Does the recent announcement by Chrylser to lay off 10,000 people have anything to do with Granholm, or Michigan's environment? Remember these are salaried workers, not UAW employees, and Chrysler's U.S. market share dropped from 13.4 to 12.9% last year.

Does Pfizer's failure have anything to do with Granholm, or Michigan? Remember, Pfizer lost some major patents and blew it big-time on their latest blockbuster drug.

Did Electrolux's move from Greenville to Mexico have anything to do with Michigan? Remember, in Juarez Mexico, the workers there earn about $1.50 - 2.00/hour.

The answer is No.


If you think everyone is glossing over the economic situation in Michigan, you seriously need to pick up a newspaper. Granholm announces the creation of 500 jobs here, 100 jobs there, 200 jobs over there, because she has no choice. I'm sure she knows full well that she's being held personally accountable for the 300,000+ manufacturing jobs lost in the state.

For those who have a decent job and are doing OK (which there are millions in Michigan who are), why in the world would you think about putting your home on the market when it's in a slump? Buy low, sell high. Not the other way around. Economic cycles ebb and flow. As values go down, investors move in and buy at greatly discounted prices. And if you sell here now and move to a currently hot market (which there are fewer and fewer these days), it's a double whammy. You get undervalued on your home sale, and pay overvalue on the home you buy. There are always winners and losers in every economic cycle. Don't join the losers club.
Sorry for the mishap, infact I had said that If I was affected by the current cycle the state was going through, I would to also leave. Does granholm have a direct responsibility for Michigan's situation? Not directly, but certainly through years of failed tax structures and bad policy making. Would I sell my home right now? If I wanted to wait a year before it sold, but no I wasn't referring to everyone, just the joe who has no other choice. Do I think their are people that are glossing over the economy? I unfortunately to have listen to lecturers every day repose the situation in vain. One person alone cannot be the reason for many companies to leave (Back to disregard of business needs), although when a flow of companies leave the state, the remaining firms scramble to study the market and the reasons for the change and contemplate their future. Referenced in the Jackson Cit Pat not but two weeks ago, a starting company Polytorx, wanted to expand his business and provide thousands of jobs for the local area. After receiving no responses from state and local governments, he left the area and was offered many incentives from ten other states. 2000 jobs gone because its not the direct wish of a individual. If that doesn't influence other business I cant imagine what else will
 
Old 02-14-2007, 06:25 PM
 
6 posts, read 23,900 times
Reputation: 12
Sociologist,

Polytrox didn't employ 2000 people, only 50. The goal was to create 2000 jobs, but the owner made bogus claims that the area didn't have people that are skilled for their company.

We lose 1,000's of high paying jobs and replace them with a few hundred low paying jobs. If I'm going to make less than what I was making, then I'm moving south where I can do the same only in warm weather.
 
Old 02-20-2007, 11:57 PM
 
Location: Old west side, Ann Arbor, MI
689 posts, read 1,551,354 times
Reputation: 274
Default Its official: Lansing tells us the truth.

Not long after I heard of the State prison closing (in which I live very close to), I wondered, how can continuous cutting "balance" anything? Lansing has told us today that they intend not to budget anything, but rather to continue digging a grave for its residents. Replacing apples with oranges, reiterating the rat wheel, however you want to put it. One thing is clear: The economic impact of potential thousands of state workers losing their jobs after all the facilities are closed will far outweigh any amount of money Jen can save from operational costs. Since I live near Jackson, and maybe some of you don't know how much more serious it is in that town, how detrimental this really is. When you take 500 people (the projected loss by july) and put them out of work in a city of 36,000, well that 1.38% of its people, and probably a larger percentage of economic impact. When the jobs are gone that will leave the city with a nearly 9% unemployment rate. Thats all, I'm done.........just had to get that out.
 
Old 02-22-2007, 09:08 AM
 
Location: Michigan
488 posts, read 1,278,575 times
Reputation: 431
Re: Jackson closing-- I'll believe it when I see it. I think the Gov. may be playing hardball with the GOP leaders who say they can balance the budget w/o tax increases but refuse to say how. Maybe she is hoping that a threat to close Jackson will put pressure on lawmakers to raise the revenues necessary to keep it open.

I remember a year or two ago there was talk of closing a prison in the UP, but the affected community kicked up a fuss, and the prison remained open. Maybe that will happen again.

I suppose it is possible that the state really does need to close a prison, and Jackson would be hurt less than some other place. But even with the planned reduction of the inmate population, Michigan's prisons will not have many empty beds, so I doubt that the gov. really wants to close Jackson.

But Sociologist's larger point about economic impact is more important. I wish more people grasped this elementary economic concept. Now. if Michigan's public payroll were bloated with sinecures and busy-work jobs, that would different, but that is not the case. Michigan's public payroll has been trimmed significantly in recent years. And prison guards are not superfluous pencil-pushers-- they do necessary and very unpleasant work.
 
Old 02-22-2007, 04:27 PM
 
Location: Buffalo NY
144 posts, read 354,250 times
Reputation: 105
Quote:
Does the recent announcement by Chrylser to lay off 10,000 people have anything to do with Granholm, or Michigan's environment? Remember these are salaried workers, not UAW employees, and Chrysler's U.S. market share dropped from 13.4 to 12.9% last year.
That's not true, the cut does include UAW workers. In fact some of the people at, I believe, the Warren truck plant have been layed off last year almost as much as they worked.

Actually the point I wanted to make is this. We have depended on the auto industry for so many years that the down turn in that area is affecting every area of Michigan's economy. I'm sure Gov. Granholm as well as past Gov.s knew that all our eggs were in one basket. They should have taken steps years ago to broaden Michigan's employment base.

It is just the "Big 3" employees that are losing their jobs. My husband who for a company that supplies manly Chrysler lost his job last May, and he was the plant manager. Cuts had to be made so they reorganized and the company's VP is now doing my husband's job. We are in our mid 50's and have had to close our 401K that we have been building for the last 15 years to continue to live. (and believe me we do not live in a big house, have a fancy vehicle, spend like there is no tomorrow) He has been to interview after interview, and no job yet.....

I own a small retail shop that we opened 12 years ago our growth was good and we did well for 10 years. My business has taken such a dive over the past 16 or so months that I am not even able to pay the rent. We are closing our our shop at the end of our lease in June. The building I'm located in has 10 store fronts, up untill last year all of the spaces were rented. We now only have 3 shops open.

My daughteri-in-law works in a major retailer, there sales are down. I have a friend that is a hair dresser, she is barely making it.

So you see this is largely the governor's fault.... They wore blinders until the situation got so bad that they had no choice but to look at it.

Would we leave Michigan? You bet cha! We'll go anywhere that we can find a job that will pay our bills and make it possible for us NOT to have to depend on our children in our retirement.
 
Old 02-22-2007, 09:52 PM
 
Location: Virginia Beach moving possible to Michigan
77 posts, read 311,566 times
Reputation: 44
Wow..........should I stay or should I go. Some of us southerners are coming up to Michigan for various reasons, so far I know of 4 people from Virginia that are moving up. I have been on this forum for a few months and I have heard good and bad things about Michigan. I have also visited Michigan (fiance lives in Flint) on many occasions. So far my favorite area is the West side of Michigan, seen Detroit several times, stayed downtown over long weekends and have made some keen observations. I never ran into any problems or rude people, but I know for sure I would not want to live there. Look the whole world is changing. Manufacturing is dead in the Western Hemisphere, our manufacturing jobs are going elsewhere, even in Europe VW's and other automobiles are being built elsewhere. German autoworkers are pitching a fit because they might have to work up to 40 hours a week(which begs the question are unions good or bad in todays world ) global competition. China is now coming out with there own line of cars and we will see them in the future and don't think we won't buy them. Remember that tiny little Honda that everyone laughed at, look whose laughing now. So as other posters have said, the Southeast corridor has always relied on the auto industry and places like the south, ex NC with it's research triangle, or other cities that have high tech industries that cater to the government. These are the kinds of industries that I guess should have been lured to Michigan by offering tax incentives or breaks to make it attractive for the business to set up shop. I could go on and on, but I think this thread is about worn out. Just one little statistic about throwing money at education in K-12. Washington D.C. spends the most money per student in the U.S. but they have the lowest test scores, and the highest drop out rate in the nation. I work in a childrens hospital and I can tell you, ITS THE PARENTS. No discipline. How many of you have children who complain about students talking in class, no respect for teachers or seeing 4 or 5 year old kids up until all hours of the night. Most people know how to raise there kids, but there has been a huge increase of people who don't. The schools are there, the teachers are there, a lot of the students could give a crap. How many of you have seen parents cuss there kid out in public and jerk them around. I know you wanted to say something to them, but you dont' in fear of getting shot. Well I plan on coming to Michigan and where ever I live I plan on getting involved in the community in some way, so watch out the south is coming up to provide a little warmth to the cold attitudes. Oh by the way I think Michigan will be the next hot property, according to Al Gore my area will be underwater and Michigan will be a warm state, maybe even a hot state. Good luck everyone, rambling is over for the evening
 
Old 02-23-2007, 09:11 AM
 
Location: Grand Rapids Metro
7,274 posts, read 11,122,017 times
Reputation: 2570
Quote:
Originally Posted by michiganirish View Post
That's not true, the cut does include UAW workers. In fact some of the people at, I believe, the Warren truck plant have been layed off last year almost as much as they worked. My point was that troubles at the Big 3 run much deeper than high labor costs of hourly workers.

Actually the point I wanted to make is this. We have depended on the auto industry for so many years that the down turn in that area is affecting every area of Michigan's economy. I'm sure Gov. Granholm as well as past Gov.s knew that all our eggs were in one basket. They should have taken steps years ago to broaden Michigan's employment base.

It is just the "Big 3" employees that are losing their jobs. My husband who for a company that supplies manly Chrysler lost his job last May, and he was the plant manager. Cuts had to be made so they reorganized and the company's VP is now doing my husband's job. We are in our mid 50's and have had to close our 401K that we have been building for the last 15 years to continue to live. (and believe me we do not live in a big house, have a fancy vehicle, spend like there is no tomorrow) He has been to interview after interview, and no job yet.....

I own a small retail shop that we opened 12 years ago our growth was good and we did well for 10 years. My business has taken such a dive over the past 16 or so months that I am not even able to pay the rent. We are closing our our shop at the end of our lease in June. The building I'm located in has 10 store fronts, up untill last year all of the spaces were rented. We now only have 3 shops open.

My daughteri-in-law works in a major retailer, there sales are down. I have a friend that is a hair dresser, she is barely making it.

So you see this is largely the governor's fault.... They wore blinders until the situation got so bad that they had no choice but to look at it.

Would we leave Michigan? You bet cha! We'll go anywhere that we can find a job that will pay our bills and make it possible for us NOT to have to depend on our children in our retirement.
So if the governors (Blanchard, Engler and Granholm) should have had foresight to try and diversify the economy long ago, wouldn't it have been wise for your husband to look at diversifying out of the automotive industry as well, as I did 7 years ago? Or does the burden of responsibility just fall on the governor's shoulders? Diversification of the state's economy requires participation from everyone in the state, especially those not sitting in Lansing.

I was referring to the announcement just recently about Chrysler proposing to layoff 10,000 workers, the bulk of which in Michigan are rumored to be at the Tech Center. Most of the remainder are at the Durango plant in Delaware, and a truck plant in St. Louis. My point was that the problems run deeper than just labor costs of hourly workers.

Of course poor management at the Big 3 Ship of Fools affects everyone else in Michigan. Each manufacturing job has an economic multiplier of about 8 - 10 additional jobs, so each manufacturing layoff affects quite a few other people, including suppliers, service providers, and yes even retailers and homes sales.

But Michigan has diversified quite a bit from the 1970's. Manufacturing employment is far less today than it was back then (all over the country), and UAW membership is at an all-time low. Unfortunately, it was far too big of a percentage of overall employment from that time period through today, so the shift hit Michigan the hardest.

The biggest irony is that "right-to-work" states in the South have actually increased their number of manufacturing jobs. Short term gains (sure you can find a job today) but long term investment boondoggles for these states, as virginia1 pointed out that the hot sales of the Toyotas and Nissans of today will be replaced by the low cost Chinese and Korean vehicles of tomorrow. Don't believe me? How's the rest of the Walmart-ization of American doing in that regard?

But really, all the governor can do is create a policy and business environment condusive for diversifying the economy, the governor does not directly create jobs except for road construction, as they shouldn't (this isn't Stalingrad). In fact, in my opinion the governor should actually be cutting jobs and laying people off (at the state level) if it means the State can run more efficiently. And Michigan fits right in the middle of the pack as far as tax burden on businesses and individuals.

But anyway, despite the prevailing attitude around here, there are some beautiful areas in the Detroit metro (and even in Detroit) that are safe, virtually crime-free, clean, walkable, picturesque, vibrant, and fun, and there are some unsafe areas in rural Michigan (filled with narrow minded racists and homophobes). You can't apply a blanket statement to any of it.

Love from Michigan.

Last edited by magellan; 02-23-2007 at 09:24 AM..
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