How bad do you think MI really is? (Detroit, Grand Rapids: environment, lawyer)

[Sociologist]

So we've all pounded the reality of our situation. But who can tell the future? Its almost impossible to tell what will happen to the state, its people, or the government. In my eyes we have just jumped into the water, and its still a long time before our feet touch the bottom. No economic, social, or governmental change can stop the domino's at this point, and those who can start a change wont speak, except watch silently as they see us approach the bottom. The country is on the verge of a large shift, fueled in large by sagging housing industry, and soft markets. No one is confident in any sector, or industry. The events that have shaped Michigan can happen to any other state just as quickly. The cloud of economic uncertainty that has situated itself over us will linger as long as confidence of the market remains down. When a government fails, as our state's, they in large want us to accept the failure, by doing with less public services, and higher costs. Sell your home? Move? Uproot everything you know? I do agree that there is a time to leave and a time to stay. Of course, without employment it is difficult to manage a move with financial difficulty, but this in large is the trap many don't "see" You may be comfortable with your lower income, but it may be impossible for you to relocate if you had to. Concurrently, once your in the time warp its near impossible to better yourself. Its the silence of our leaders that worries me today...

[magellan]

Originally Posted by cksh

I can't attest too much to the west side of the state but Michigan is Michigan. The economy is poor and families are leaving the state. What is good about being in ann excellent school district? It will be closed in 5 years and your kids will go elsewhere because they can't afford teachers because of the small enrollment rates.

I envy anyone who can start their own business here. It would be great if you could live in Michigan and work from home. But I don't know anyone who does. And for small start up businesses? They don't exist except for those working from their basements. I can't believe how many empty buildings there are. Give Michigan 5-10 years to get this whole big 3 situation straightended out. By then you can buy the same cheap house for pennies on the dollar. Housing may seem one-income affordable but why throw your money away. The same house will be worth less than you paid in a couple of years and if you have to sell for job or family reason you are in the hole.

If you want to move to Michigan rent for a couple of years. Stay away from towns with manufacturing as their main business. Or better yet, why move to a dying state to begin with. Wait until it moves to a service/tech industrial base and save yourself. I find a majority of people who still want to live here have never lived elsewhere. And the rest want to leave because the grass can be greener elsewhere. And they have lived in other states.

Some of the arguments I have read for living here are:

four seasons
small town feel
nice people
recreation
Great for Families

I can think of plenty of other states to get that. Every other arguement would have to relate to the economy and you can't win in Michigan.

Is Michigan a great state for starting a family? If you don't mind giving up job security sure. So what if you are not materialistic. It doesnt matter when you can't get even a minimum wage job. Maybe you can live off the state. At least you can get your four seasons and head up north to go fishing

Most of this is pretty funny, but I can tell you the school my kids are in is brand new and is already overcrowded, and the five year master plan for our district is being worked on and there's going to be a huge crunch for space. If you want to sell me your house for "pennies on the dollar", let me know.

Good luck in whatever state you end up in.

Sociologist, there is no magic bullet, but there are plenty of resources out there to learn from, and plenty of ways to get involved. You just have to look at both the successes and failures that other cities and states have made, and find some way to get involved.

[michiganbob]

Originally Posted by magellan

Most of this is pretty funny, but I can tell you the school my kids are in is brand new and is already overcrowded, and the five year master plan for our district is being worked on and there's going to be a huge crunch for space. If you want to sell me your house for "pennies on the dollar", let me know.

magellan:

Funny because these bad things are happening to someone else, or funny because you don't think they know what you know, and if they did they'd stop complaining? I would humbly suggest you try walking a mile in their shoes before you say such things.

On one hand, I'm happy that the school district where you live is growing. Great problem to have. But there are any number of cities in the state that thought at one time they had the same great problem: 15 years ago Okemos build two or three new elementary school, a new middle school (they needed two) and a HUGE high school. Now? They're closing elementary schools and the secondary schools aren't even close to being full. Why? I'm sure there are a number of complicated factors, but the bottom line is they saw a growth line, assumed it would always point up and planned accordingly. Oops.

Again, I hope your area continues to do well, but there are any number of communities in the state where they literally could not give a house away because the economy is so bad there. When things are going well where you are it's really hard to image life on the other side. You may wish to say a little prayer tonight and give thanks that the "economy demon" has passed over your community, because one of these days he might just decide that you're next.

Now THAT would be funny.

[Mi_Mom]

We're looking at moving because we're drowning up here in MI. And I've lived in this state just about 99% of my short life. Jobs are hard to come by, companies in the auto and financial industry are taking a second glance at having a prosperous business here. People left and right are having their houses foreclosed on because they just can't make ends meet. The amount that is being paid for retirees/benefits to the auto industry (as well as health benefits) are now causing reprecussions in this day and age. I'm specifically talking about SE Michigan so don't assume I'm preaching about western MI.

And Nashville isn't the only place in TN.

[magellan]

Originally Posted by michiganbob

magellan:

Funny because these bad things are happening to someone else, or funny because you don't think they know what you know, and if they did they'd stop complaining? I would humbly suggest you try walking a mile in their shoes before you say such things.

On one hand, I'm happy that the school district where you live is growing. Great problem to have. But there are any number of cities in the state that thought at one time they had the same great problem: 15 years ago Okemos build two or three new elementary school, a new middle school (they needed two) and a HUGE high school. Now? They're closing elementary schools and the secondary schools aren't even close to being full. Why? I'm sure there are a number of complicated factors, but the bottom line is they saw a growth line, assumed it would always point up and planned accordingly. Oops.

Again, I hope your area continues to do well, but there are any number of communities in the state where they literally could not give a house away because the economy is so bad there. When things are going well where you are it's really hard to image life on the other side. You may wish to say a little prayer tonight and give thanks that the "economy demon" has passed over your community, because one of these days he might just decide that you're next.

Now THAT would be funny.

Grand Rapids is not all rosy. The housing market here is not good, and frankly from about 2002 - 2005 it was downright miserable around here. Bad news every time you turned around, Steelcase layed off 10,000 people and couldn't make a profit, Electrolux (Frigidaire) packed up and moved 2000 jobs to Mexico, auto parts suppliers in trouble, you name it. But I don't think as many people here ever lost hope, which is certainly lacking right now in much of Michigan. Now things are on the upswing again. The "demon" came and went, as always.

But I didn't come right out and wish people harm like some people digress to. Sure, I pray, but I'm certainly not betting on it to make life better.

Peace Wabbit!

- Quick Draw Magellan

[Catherine D]

MichiganBob, you need to walk in a more positive persons shoes. This is a forum for information. You may find this hard to believe, but there are people who are doing well in MI! Everyone can find fault with where they live and find good things. My husband has lived in 17 different states and has thoroughly enjoyed our time in West Michigan. He came here from San Francisco...imagine that? I don't think you can? Maybe because you haven't walked in his shoes. Just as we haven't walked in yours. But maybe, just maybe yours isn't the only opinion. Maybe this post would like some valid information other than yours? I could find statics of dome about anything I wanted. Why not be part of the solution, instead of the problem. Or, just let it go!

[michiganbob]

I have to be on one side or the other, don't I? It can't possibly be that I might be somewhere in the middle. Someone who loves living in Michigan (honestly, I do) but who also has lived elsewhere and is willing to relocate if it comes to that. I hope it does not, but I am enough a realist to know that such a time may come . . . no matter how positive my attitude or how much I may love this state. (Please, don't question that.) If that's all it took, do you think we would be in this mess? How many people who loved living here have left in the past few years? Does that make them all quitters or losers in your eyes?

As far as this thread providing information . . . that shipped sailed a few days ago, so don't slap me around for jumping in as I did. The thread is about how bad things are here and that is relative. An opinion. You offered yours, I offere mine. For some it's good, and others it's bad but I'm smart enough to see which group is growing.

And magellen: it's great to hear that West Michigan weathered the storm once. But that doesn't make you weather proof. You sounded boastful in your earlier post about the schools in your area being crowded. I'm sorry if I misread that, but seriously, how does that help someone in another part of the state who's lost there job and can't sell their home to move elsewhere? Is that providing helpful information? Maybe everyone should move to GR, with our without jobs.

As someone who lives in the Lansing area and is tired of the Detroit vs. Grand Rapids bickering, maybe it is time to move on. One more empty house here in the middle won't affect the economy on the east or west coast of the state, will it?

[Wabbit]

Mi_Mom,
Actually, though it may have seemed that way, I wasn't bashing Tennessee
in my earlier post. All I'm saying is that when you've lived in one place your whole life you become so accustom to that regions pace, tastes ect. that you can experience a bit of 'culture shock' in a move down south.
When you go on vacation you really appreciate those differences but after the third or forth month of living there, you start to realize what made your former state 'home'.
Now, before a bunch of transplants begin writing about how they've never thought of Michigan once since the day they left. I know this is not always the case. I went from L.A California to Savannah Georgia to Grand Rapids Michigan and let me tell you, the differences are real, and there is a transition period that can be difficult.
The neighbor I had while growing up was a Truck driver who moved to Tennessee and felt like that's the day his life began, so it all depends. I hope this is the case with you Mi_MOM
I just think it's kind of funny how many people on this board have the opinion, "I hate Michigan, I'm packing up and going down South where I'll be happy." without once considering the cultural differences or even the amimosity they might encounter when they get there. Calling Michigan names because of the economy is one thing, calling it names because you don't like the winters is another, but calling it ugly, boring etc. is just silly.
If you have a job, the quality of life in Michigan is as good or better than any place I've ever been. I realize that's a big 'if' for a lot of people in this state, but bitterness is a dangerous crunch that I can tell some of you have been leaning on for way too long.

[magellan]

Originally Posted by michiganbob

I have to be on one side or the other, don't I? It can't possibly be that I might be somewhere in the middle. Someone who loves living in Michigan (honestly, I do) but who also has lived elsewhere and is willing to relocate if it comes to that. I hope it does not, but I am enough a realist to know that such a time may come . . . no matter how positive my attitude or how much I may love this state. (Please, don't question that.) If that's all it took, do you think we would be in this mess? How many people who loved living here have left in the past few years? Does that make them all quitters or losers in your eyes?

As far as this thread providing information . . . that shipped sailed a few days ago, so don't slap me around for jumping in as I did. The thread is about how bad things are here and that is relative. An opinion. You offered yours, I offere mine. For some it's good, and others it's bad but I'm smart enough to see which group is growing.

And magellen: it's great to hear that West Michigan weathered the storm once. But that doesn't make you weather proof. You sounded boastful in your earlier post about the schools in your area being crowded. I'm sorry if I misread that, but seriously, how does that help someone in another part of the state who's lost there job and can't sell their home to move elsewhere? Is that providing helpful information? Maybe everyone should move to GR, with our without jobs.

As someone who lives in the Lansing area and is tired of the Detroit vs. Grand Rapids bickering, maybe it is time to move on. One more empty house here in the middle won't affect the economy on the east or west coast of the state, will it?

Wait a minute, people in this discussion thread can boast about owning 3 exotic sports car in Tennessee (or wherever), or being able to build some mansion in Texas, and they don't get called on the carpet. Yet I boast about things being great where I am in MICHIGAN (isn't this the Michigan section?) and I get called out for it?

Too funny.

I'm not bickering with the East side of the State. I'd love it if Detroit once again became a world-class city (it once was). I'm hoping my repeated boasting here gets someone somewhere on the East side or in Lansing to stand up and fight.

Probably won't be you Bob, but someone.

By the way again, I've seen economic hardship. I used to work for an auto parts supplier, lost two big accounts, and problems with my company's parts shut down General Motors' biggest Lansing plant for two straight days, idling 2500 UAW workers. Needless to say I left automotive in the dust 6 years ago and never looked back. About a month after I left the company, it was bought by a Detroit area company and run into the ground.

Oh well.

[michiganbob]

Originally Posted by magellan

Wait a minute, people in this discussion thread can boast about owning 3 exotic sports car in Tennessee (or wherever), or being able to build some mansion in Texas, and they don't get called on the carpet. Yet I boast about things being great where I am in MICHIGAN (isn't this the Michigan section?) and I get called out for it?

Too funny.

I'm not bickering with the East side of the State. I'd love it if Detroit once again became a world-class city (it once was). I'm hoping my repeated boasting here gets someone somewhere on the East side or in Lansing to stand up and fight.

Probably won't be you Bob, but someone.

By the way again, I've seen economic hardship. I used to work for an auto parts supplier, lost two big accounts, and problems with my company's parts shut down General Motors' biggest Lansing plant for two straight days, idling 2500 UAW workers. Needless to say I left automotive in the dust 6 years ago and never looked back. About a month after I left the company, it was bought by a Detroit area company and run into the ground.

Oh well.

Gee magellen, no one ever said you hadn't see tough times. I'm sure almost everyone in this thread has. I have, and I expect I will again. Maybe soon.

The question is whether current good times mean future good times. My point, for the third and final time, is that other people in this state thought that things were going well in their neck of the woods not that long ago and now things are falling apart. Your mileage may vary. For those who think everyone considering leaving is somehow a Michigan hater or just not tough enough to stick it out, just wait until the foot is on the other shoe. (You read that right.)

Too serious.

And while we're at it: exactly who am I supposed to fight and about what?