How bad do you think MI really is? (Detroit, Grand Rapids: housing, rent)

[riverqueen]

I moved out of MI in end of August of 06, to the Atlanta area. Going to settle in TN in a few months. Michigan is home, but I'll never move back

Heather

[Sociologist]

When it comes to housing (yes we officially have the highest unemployment and foreclosure rate in the nation), the reason its a "buyer's market" is because you have no one actually buying. Home owners are desperate to break their mortgage agreements because they cannot afford to continue payment on them. IF you look at the majority of the cities (middle sized and large alike) you will find OVERALL that they are primarily rented. As people relocate to different states Geeze what a surprise, people moving out of Michigan? Recently rated the top state in the nation for mass exit of its resident (New York ranked 2nd). Chat with any real estate agent and see what they say regarding the ease of selling their properties. After todays announcement that Pfizer is closing in A2 the state will come down in a crash not a slow recession as it has been. "Michigan gains jobs like tear drops, but looses them like a ship that drowned its occupants."

[magellan]

Originally Posted by Sociologist

When it comes to housing (yes we officially have the highest unemployment and foreclosure rate in the nation), the reason its a "buyer's market" is because you have no one actually buying. Home owners are desperate to break their mortgage agreements because they cannot afford to continue payment on them. IF you look at the majority of the cities (middle sized and large alike) you will find OVERALL that they are primarily rented. As people relocate to different states Geeze what a surprise, people moving out of Michigan? Recently rated the top state in the nation for mass exit of its resident (New York ranked 2nd). Chat with any real estate agent and see what they say regarding the ease of selling their properties. After todays announcement that Pfizer is closing in A2 the state will come down in a crash not a slow recession as it has been. "Michigan gains jobs like tear drops, but looses them like a ship that drowned its occupants."

Got a source for that foreclosure "factoid" there sociologist?

People here seem to keep perpetuating the same falsehood, that Michigan leads the country in foreclosures. For December 2006:

1 Colorado
2 Nevada
3 Georgia
4 Massachusetts
5 Texas
6 Michigan
7 Ohio

http://realestate.msn.com/buying/Art...mentid=2507006

Grand Rapids city has a 60% homeownership rate
Lansing 58%
Muskegon 57%
Jackson 57%
Michigan as a whole 76%
National average 68.9%

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004920.html

Pfizer's news was not good, but hardly the crash you're talking about.

[Nehor]

Originally Posted by BetseeT

I have lived in Michigan my whole life and I don't think I'd move to actually live anywhere else. As others have said though, if you have a job that pays enough, you're happier. Very true. Both my husband and I work, raise our kids and are close to our extended families.

I think it's true that most people think Detroit when they think Michigan. Michigan is sooooo much more than Detroit. West Michigan is a great place to live. I live between Kalamazoo and Battle Creek, about a half hour from Indiana. Not in a snow belt which is the Lake Michigan area. No, not much snow this year; unseasonably warm actually. And very gray, which gets way old. But that's why they make vacations

Back to the weather ... very very very few tornadoes, one in downtown K-zoo about 25 to 30 years ago. No tsunamis. No hurricanes. No forest fires. One earthquake that was centered in Indiana I think back in the '80s. Haven't had a severe snowstorn since the late '70s. Very little flooding. Summers aren't too hot, winters aren't South Dakota cold.

The U.P.? Rocks out loud. Lake Superior is simply beautiful. Tahquammanon Falls? You can swim in them in the summertime.

Because our economy isn't great right now is that if you're an entrepreneur or if you're looking to expand your business, Michigan has people looking for work and the local, city and state governments will give tax incentives to either keep you here or get you here.

So that's my .02. Oh yeah, and the Kalamazoo Promise. That's a pretty good incentive too.

That is a great attitude! Focus on the positive...

I grew up in Flint and it is sad to see it in the condition it is in now. My family is still there. Flint is a victim of putting all of its eggs in one basket (General Motors) and the sense of entitlement that is prevalent with the U.A.W. Flint and the rest of MI will bounce back, however it will take time. Now is not a good time to leave if you can help it, you'll have difficulty selling your home. I've been in Maryland for two years and just sold my cabin on a lake in Gladwin this month...

I'm actually considering coming back because I'm being transferred to Toledo, OH two weeks from now. I've been researching Ohio and I'm finding that it is much more expensive to live in Ohio than it is in Michigan. Michigan's income tax rate is fixed @ 3.9%. It is actually quite reasonable compared to many other states, including Maryland (4.5%) and Ohio (7% for my bracket). Michigan's property taxes are also much lower than the Metropolitan Toledo area's. (About 40% lower from what I can tell). The biggest problem I have with Michigan is the condition of the roads. They are by far the worst I have ever traveled. I still haven't decided where I'm going to move, within a 30 mile radius of Toledo.

[Sociologist]

Rust Belt Mentality? Shall we continue to watch a state crumble and say "its only in the media" As our children suffer from closed schools and increased crime. Shall we look at the reality of our situation or continue to deny responsability of our situation and say it will "Get better?" Its people who have a family who are suffering, and to someone who lives in a state with a near 10% unemployment rate, yes the grass will always be greener

[Sociologist]

If your considering beginning an inquiry on foreclosures, the best place to look is quick facts.census.gov, which takes data directly from city and state officials regarding foreclosure. The data (including where I found MY data was pulled from there). As someone has been a friend of several Agents, (and there experience is the best indicator to me), the problem is REAL. Come to u of m and listen to distinguished professionals speak about our situation. How bad are the foreclosures? Many sites that proclaim to have "facts" pull data from other sites and outdated information. How can you NOT say pfizer wasn't a crash? Talk to anyone who held a job there, people who hold office in Ann Arbor, they know the reality of what will become if that trend continues in that city. The last gem of our state ,Ann Arbor holds the lowest unemployment rate (qoute me and Dr. Westrum at U of M, Magellan) If the strongest link in the chain fails, then what do you have? A individual can come up with 1,000 websites who will say 1,000 different things, the facts are here when you drive around a block and see the massive amount of for sale signs. Ever attend a public tax auction? Or inquire into current properties being foreclosed due to unpaid taxes? Pages and Pages my friend, banks desperate to get rid of bad debt, cities willing to sell homes for under 10K. Ebay is making a fortune off of advertisement of these events. Most cities don't advertise these listings unless that have a huge amount (look in det free press to see thousands.) People loosing homes because of $200. Talk to any educator or real estate office in person and see what they have to say about Michigan's Housing crisis. Call atlas van lines (office in Farmington Hills, MI) and ask them where people are going. The largest number of people leaving any state is Michigan. (Atlas Van lines, mlive.com,Det News, Moderator cut: linking to competitors sites is not allowed Census.gov, MANY MORE) Government can attempt to paint a positive picture, but the lines of people at unemployment offices, and the lines of U Haul trucks leaving the state tell the truth.

[magellan]

Originally Posted by Sociologist

If your considering beginning an inquiry on foreclosures, the best place to look is quick facts.census.gov, which takes data directly from city and state officials regarding foreclosure. The data (including where I found MY data was pulled from there). As someone has been a friend of several Agents, (and there experience is the best indicator to me), the problem is REAL. Come to u of m and listen to distinguished professionals speak about our situation. How bad are the foreclosures? Many sites that proclaim to have "facts" pull data from other sites and outdated information. How can you NOT say pfizer wasn't a crash? Talk to anyone who held a job there, people who hold office in Ann Arbor, they know the reality of what will become if that trend continues in that city. The last gem of our state ,Ann Arbor holds the lowest unemployment rate (qoute me and Dr. Westrum at U of M, Magellan) If the strongest link in the chain fails, then what do you have? A individual can come up with 1,000 websites who will say 1,000 different things, the facts are here when you drive around a block and see the massive amount of for sale signs. Ever attend a public tax auction? Or inquire into current properties being foreclosed due to unpaid taxes? Pages and Pages my friend, banks desperate to get rid of bad debt, cities willing to sell homes for under 10K. Ebay is making a fortune off of advertisement of these events. Most cities don't advertise these listings unless that have a huge amount (look in det free press to see thousands.) People loosing homes because of $200. Talk to any educator or real estate office in person and see what they have to say about Michigan's Housing crisis. Call atlas van lines (office in Farmington Hills, MI) and ask them where people are going. The largest number of people leaving any state is Michigan. (Atlas Van lines, mlive.com,Det News, Moderator cut: linking to competitors sites is not allowed Census.gov, MANY MORE) Government can attempt to paint a positive picture, but the lines of people at unemployment offices, and the lines of U Haul trucks leaving the state tell the truth.

So you're saying if I talk to a select group of real estate agents (I also know many real estate agents and people who work in new home sales), listen to a lecture from a professor, and then drive around my neighborhood, then that's a good indication of the economy? As opposed to getting realty data from websites who specialize in foreclosures, or from financial media websites.

I'm not denying things are bad, but your alarmism and made up stats compel me to respond and give some perspective. Foreclosures are a problem virtually everywhere in this country, and they will get much worse as millions of ARM loans taken out in the last five years will start to "reset" to their variable rate.

For the record, the unemployment in Michigan is not "near 10%". It's 7.1% for the entire state as of Dec. 06, with many metro areas averaging 5.6 - 6% this past year. Check bls.gov for more, or do you need to ask Joe Schmoe standing in line at the homeless shelter what the unemployment rate is first to get the "real story".

But the real question is, what do you plan to do to make things better sociologist? Or is it just in your nature to complain. Have you contacted any of your congressmen and women to overhaul the corrupt lending industry? Have you invested in a Michigan business? Have you made an effort to buy locally to support your local economy (your neighbors)? Have you supported the governor in efforts to stimulate a more diverse economy?

BTW: When did Ann Arbor become the "strongest link in the chain"?. Pfizer's downfall had nothing to do with the tax structure, business environment, or mistakes made by Ann Arbor. It's being run into the ground by poorly run management out of NY. Zoloft gone, Lipitor gone in 2010, Torcetrapib pulled because of patient deaths, and no "blockbuster" drugs in the pipeline. Perhaps it's a good thing they are leaving Michigan. They took a great company like Upjohn and destroyed it. It's certainly an unfortunate series of events.

[Wabbit]

Magellan's right,
No doubt, Pfizer leaving was a hit, but it had nothing
to do with Michigan’s current business climate.
After swallowing Upjohn and Parke-Davis their job was done here.
They have planned to move it all back to New York for some time,
they just didn’t want anyone to know until the timing was beneficial
to them. All the tax breaks and perks in the world wouldn’t have
made any difference.
That said, can anyone tell me what Granholm is doing to make
Michigan’s business climate more attractive to new and diverse industries.
Since she’s been in office we seem to be the Teflon state. -Nothing sticks.
Believe me when I say this isn’t a Republican/Democratic issue
with me, it just seems like there’s been lot of frosting (talk) and no cake.
Whatever happened to the crooked politician that gets deals done! (kiddin')

[magellan]

Originally Posted by Wabbit

Magellan's right,
No doubt, Pfizer leaving was a hit, but it had nothing
to do with Michigan’s current business climate.
After swallowing Upjohn and Parke-Davis their job was done here.
They have planned to move it all back to New York for some time,
they just didn’t want anyone to know until the timing was beneficial
to them. All the tax breaks and perks in the world wouldn’t have
made any difference.
That said, can anyone tell me what Granholm is doing to make
Michigan’s business climate more attractive to new and diverse industries.
Since she’s been in office we seem to be the Teflon state. -Nothing sticks.
Believe me when I say this isn’t a Republican/Democratic issue
with me, it just seems like there’s been lot of frosting (talk) and no cake.
Whatever happened to the crooked politician that gets deals done! (kiddin')

Thanks wabbit! To be honest, I wasn't a big fan of Granholm and almost voted against her, but decided to let her stick it out.

I'm not sure modeling our business climate after the "race-to-the-bottom" tax giveaway system that the southern states have created is the answer. It's hard to compete with Tennessee, Alabama, Georgia and the Carolinas in that regard. Ask any native of NC how they felt about giving Dell $242 Million in tax breaks to locate in Winston Salem and you'll hear an ear-full.

I think investing in alternative energy sources, and building export markets for those products and services to the rest of the world, would be a great investment for the state to make.

[joenc]

Originally Posted by magellan

I'm not sure modeling our business climate after the "race-to-the-bottom" tax giveaway system that the southern states have created is the answer. It's hard to compete with Tennessee, Alabama, Georgia and the Carolinas in that regard. Ask any native of NC how they felt about giving Dell $242 Million in tax breaks to locate in Winston Salem and you'll hear an ear-full.

I think investing in alternative energy sources, and building export markets for those products and services to the rest of the world, would be a great investment for the state to make.

The majority of the well paying jobs are not created through the tax breaks and proverbial race to the bottom. Raleigh-Durham is seeing biotech announcements every other week of 500+ new jobs, Charlotte is seeing many new jobs in the financial sector and professional services. The rural areas are the only ones seeing any dollars from the incentive games, and they haven't recovered at all - they were hit hardest of all in the recession.

I'm originally from Michigan, but I moved down with my parents to Charlotte 8 years ago. Michigan is a very depressing place nowadays, and I can say the grass is greener in the major growing cities of the South (especially if you have skills and are educated). Metro Atlanta, Raleigh, Austin, Charlotte are all great choices and have higher median incomes and higher education-obtainment rates than most cities in Michigan before 2000.