[Bhaalspawn]

Originally Posted by Indentured Servant

Let me interject by pointing out that there is not an infinite supply of good paying jobs that do or do not require a college education. Getting certain education or training does not create demand for that education or training. If everyone were to suddenly get the type of education and training that pays the big bucks…..those careers would no longer pay the big bucks. What allows many disciplines and careers to pay the big bucks is that not a lot of people have the skill relative to the demand for it.

One has to keep in mind that the price of something, in the market, is determined by the laws of supply and demand. Generally, the rule is that oversupply reduces prices and undersupply increases price, relative to demand. Thus, the price for skills is also influenced by the supply of and demand for that skill in the market. The oversupply of general labor in the economy, relative to demand, means that some people will not find work, as well as, those working as general or unskilled labor will see a steady erosion of the pay overtime. On the other hand, those with skill sets in areas that cannot find enough workers can demand higher wages and are seeing wage increases.

Wow. That sounds like something I might have written myself. Sadly, few people, including those who are college educated, understand simple economic principles.

I suspect that part of the problem is that we've been indoctrinated to believe that we live in a land of boundless opportunity and that Meritocracy prevails, so if you work hard enough you will succeed (regardless of whether or not a great many other competitors are also "working hard enough").

It's too bad that more Americans don't understand those simple principles you enunciated because if they did, they might have a better understanding of other economic issues such as immigration, work visas, foreign outsourcing, and global labor arbitrage. If they did perhaps they would demand that our feckless politicians address our nation's problems.

[Bhaalspawn]

Originally Posted by detshen

I think it's crazy to bash education. I certainly would want my kids in college. I earned an M.S. as a fully independent adult. I had to get loans and work to pay for it, but now I make good money doing something I love, and it's a career that won't disappear.

Are people bashing education or merely the almost religiously-held dogmatic notion that education is the cure-all to our nation's economic problems and that investing time and money in college is the most rational course of action for the unemployed and underemployed?

[Bhaalspawn]

Originally Posted by uncertaintimes

Look at the long range, there is nothing on the horizon for the whole country that is going to pull us out of this.

This is a very scary prospect. Where are the jobs (in new fields and in sufficient quantities) that we need to replace the ones that have been lost (and also to keep pace with population growth)? Why will "next big thing" technology work be done in the United States and not in some other nation where the labor is cheaper? (Contrary to popular belief, Americans do not have a God-given monopoly on the ability to innovate.)

The problems we face today are even more complicated because they are a running out of natural rec. and damaging of the world.

This is another aspect of the current recession that differentiates it from previous recessions. The world's supply of oil is being depleted but our entire economy is dependent on it. Our nation is also suffering from a third-world-like population explosion (which means fewer resources per capita).

Is it, thus, any wonder that so many Americans are feeling scared?

[cowcat]

Americans overvaluing education is a major part of the problem? HA, that's a good one! The only segment of our population that might overvalue education, and this is a big generalization, is the Asian community. Last time I checked, they had the highest average income out of any demographic and were doing fairly well, except for getting wacked in the head by a baseball bat once in a while by a laid-off Chrysler foreman.

Yes, I'm biased as a U of M prof, but the 50% Asian-American enrollment in my classes when they make up such a smaller percentage of the general population suggests to me that the problem with your average American, especially here in Michitucky, is NOT the overvaluing of education. So back away from your baseball bats, people, and look within for your problems.

Look at this post in the AZ forum by a native Michigander. http://www.city-data.com/forum/tucso...tucson-40.html The anti-education rhetoric coming from her is classic Michitucky. Yeah, Bill Gates didn't finish Harvard - who needs education? After living here for so many years, I can now see why so many Michiganders are attracted to AZ and its 50th ranked educational system!

I used to think that Michitucky wasn't too different from any state - Calitucky, Pennsyltucky, etc. - but I'm realizing now how much more polarized MI is between the laid off, Big 3 screw-turners and those with skills easily transferable across the US.

[wanderer74]

I don't think its a question of Michiganders overvaluing education (or anyone in the US for that matter), but college education IS always held up as the solution to our ailing economy and displaced workers, and does not take into account that frequently the jobs aren't there once you graduate. I'm a great believer in the value of education for its own sake, and that's why I spent many hours hanging out in libraries for fun gathering materials for my own self-education both before and after getting a college degree. But before I went back to college all I could get were jobs like data entry and retail, and now that I have a degree (despite having graduated magna c um laude) that's still all I can get because the jobs just aren't there. I know more people than I can count who are in a similar boat. A college educated population may be a more cultured and literate one and that's a great benefit in my view, but college education in itself doesn't solve the issue that our nation is moving to a service-based economy that largely has low wages and doesn't require degrees for most jobs. More people having college degrees does not create jobs.

[cowcat]

Originally Posted by wanderer74

More people having college degrees does not create jobs.

Yeah, but maybe we could fill the plethora of jobs that are routinely given to foreigners! Don't believe me? Walk around Silicon Valley when you visit the Bay Area. A good place to start is the Googleplex. Heck, visit the Google offices here in A2 - it sure isn't a slice of Americana!

Whether it's a formal degree or some other type of training, it's obvious that there are many types of jobs that the average American can't fill, maybe b/c we're math and science retarded. So we're either stupid or undertrained - take your pick.

[wanderer74]

That would be nice. Unfortunately some people like me just really suck at math - which may be due to just being stupid/undertrained or it could be that I'm just left-brained (or is it right-brained? either way - the one that's opposite the math and science!). I've been a 'language person' my whole life and I think it would be a major struggle at best for me to try to do the opposite. But people like my husband, he's brilliant with math and science and I can see him being very well-suited to those types of jobs currently given to foreigners if only his education had prepared him for that. Honestly I think a lot of those jobs require a base of knowledge prior to undertaking a college degree though and that's why we're having to look outside the US for candidates. Our public school system, even at the elementary and secondary levels, is not preparing students well enough for college-level training in those fields. So a stronger foundation of science and math education would undoubtedly help. But what can we do for those people who have talents to offer but they're the "wrong" talents? Some of us aren't likely to be tech whizzes no matter what and not everyone will be happy in the same mold.

[cowcat]

The US is a perfect example that programs and wealth can only do so much. We are so over-programmed these days. There are hordes of insane parents out there putting their kids through [fill-in-the-blank] camp at earlier and earlier ages. What do we have to show for it? Sports? Many of the best players in the world never went to soccer or baseball camp but played with a rolled up ball of plastic bags in a dusty parking lot. Here we have trainers, child psychologists, state-of-the-art equipment, gatorade, etc. The same can be said for academic pursuits - math camp, spelling bees, art lessons, etc. Do you think that Indian guy sitting in the Googleplex had multiplication tables and $100 calculators given to him when he was in 2nd grade?

The fact is you either have to work harder and/or smarter than the rest of the world. We're not doing much of either as a nation these days. Instead we have adults bitching on here who can hardly spell nor produce a gramatically correct sentence. It's everyone elses fault but their own...and damn those people enjoying ice cream out there!

[Paddington]

Yeah and Michigan is the center of that. It's a place where steel stampers with an 8th grade education don't even want to earn $65,000 (plus healthcare and pension) for 40 hours a week of pulling down a lever. Now they want $250,000 buyouts (plus their accrued benefits) to not work, else they're going on strike.

It's not just that though that bothers me. I'm reminded of the Michael Keaton film from the 1980's, where the Japanese firm buys out the American car factory. One of the Japanese executives said something to the effect of, "In Japan, when the company does well, the worker feels proud. When it does poorly, he feels ashamed." In Michigan, you obviously don't have that, not anymore at least. Those UAW workers will strike until the whole company burns down. They'd be happier losing everything than giving in an inch, just out of spite. And you don't have to go to Japan to find people who aren't like that. I'd wager those folks working at the Googleplex take seriously the concept of shared prosperity, as do the folks working at the non-union transplant factories in nearby states like Indiana. It's in Michigan now that you've got this opportunistic, parasitic culture in place where all people care about is "getting theirs" by any means necessary, then making a bee-line to the sunbelt. You can see it in the crumbling schools of Detroit or the crumbling overpasses of I-75. No one cares. Everyone wants to go on strike so they can stab their employer where it hurts the most, and they'll have their 6 figure buyout because quite frankly they do more harm than good at work and it's better for them to be paid not to work. That's the 21st century reality of Michigan!

[Cato the Elder]

Originally Posted by cowcat

Yeah, but maybe we could fill the plethora of jobs that are routinely given to foreigners! Don't believe me? Walk around Silicon Valley when you visit the Bay Area. A good place to start is the Googleplex. Heck, visit the Google offices here in A2 - it sure isn't a slice of Americana!

You don't have to go to Google. Drive around Troy's business district for a while. The context is tragic, but read the news about a recent car accident involving employees of Syntel Inc.: 4 workers of Troy company killed on vacation | Freep.com | Detroit Free Press. Not only were these employees Indians, but the founder of Syntel is Indian - a grad of U of M's B-school. Why are the Bharat Desai's of the world establishing new companies in Michigan that employ over 12,000 people? Why not someone homegrown? We aren't going to do it by saying education is useless and waiting outside a GM plant for a job, LMAO.

MI does not need a rare superstar like Larry Page to come along. It needs dozens of more "run-of-the-mill" stars like Bharat Desai who are homegrown and will start businesses in MI. They would do much more good for MI than a Larry Page type starting a token Google office in MI.