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Ann Arbor is so overrated. Do a Google search and you can find a website devoted to this very topic. You have all these culturally-starved kids who grew up in Boring-ass, MI who head there and think it's the best thing since sliced bread. If you want a quaint town, Grand Rapids and even K-zoo blow A2 out of the water. If you want cosmopolitan as in world-class amenities - I mean orchestra, shopping, and not just a Japanese dive restaurant, you can do much better in Oakland County and Chicago. A2 is a tweener town - too big to be a quaint college town, too provincial to be a cosmo place. Plus the faculty, staff, and students are so full of themselves. You are at a STATE school people, not Harvard. Your average undergrad can get a much more useful and meaningful education at a score of small liberal arts colleges littered across the Midwest. Grad students can have a great research experience, but they are rarely the ones drinking the U of M koolaid and preaching the gospel of Ann Arbor. You can live in Oakland County for the same amount of money with more to do than keg parties or get a quainter location for half the price in places like Grand Rapids.
You might be right...YET...it is STILL better than Lansing
Fact is UM's an excellent school, as is MSU in its own right. Both make the State of Michigan proud to have such a state U 1-2 punch.
excellent point, Prof.
I live in Illinois, a bigger state than yours, and we have just one flagship institution, the U of I. What does that mean? Top notch students who wish to go to a top caliber instate public university can't get into Illinois and end up heading in droves to Madison, Bloomington, Iowa City, etc. and paying out of state tuition (note: that statement has nothing to do with the quality of UW, IU, or UIowa. UW is obviously a peer institution of the U of I, for example, but WI is a much smaller state than IL so obviously there are more room for out-of-state students in Madison than in Champaign). Simply put, there is not a public university in Illinois that isn't in UIUC's shaddow.
Not the case you have in Michigan. You have two high quality public flagships, offering virtually twice the number of slots for enrollement than we have in Illinois. And with Michigan being more urbanized than many states with the two flagships that go by those Univ of ___ / ___ State Univ names, U-M and MSU tend to have more overlap in curriculum and give a more comprehensive education at both schools as opposed to schools in more rural states (Iowa St, K-St, Ok St, Miss St, Ore St, etc.) which stick more to their agricultural roots.
Point is (and coming from an outsider): you guys in Michigan are incredibly fortunate to have U-M and MSU.
Lansing being a larger metro/area, state capital city, with East Lansing as a suburb, is much less influenced by MSU than Ann Arbor by U-M, as A2 is the lone small city (at the edge of Detroit's metro area) with really no industry other than the U-M and U-M influenced research companies...
This is a question for TheProf (or anyone who agrees with his observation above):
If U-M has more influence in A2 due to its lone city status, how does the Lansing/MSU relationship of larger city/capital city compare with the Madison/UW and Columbus/OSU relationships? Is Lansing as involved with and sees MSU as a major part of its identity the way that Madison and Columbus see their universities?
I live in Illinois, a bigger state than yours, and we have just one flagship institution, the U of I. What does that mean? Top notch students who wish to go to a top caliber instate public university can't get into Illinois and end up heading in droves to Madison, Bloomington, Iowa City, etc. and paying out of state tuition (note: that statement has nothing to do with the quality of UW, IU, or UIowa. UW is obviously a peer institution of the U of I, for example, but WI is a much smaller state than IL so obviously there are more room for out-of-state students in Madison than in Champaign). Simply put, there is not a public university in Illinois that isn't in UIUC's shaddow.
Not the case you have in Michigan. You have two high quality public flagships, offering virtually twice the number of slots for enrollement than we have in Illinois. And with Michigan being more urbanized than many states with the two flagships that go by those Univ of ___ / ___ State Univ names, U-M and MSU tend to have more overlap in curriculum and give a more comprehensive education at both schools as opposed to schools in more rural states (Iowa St, K-St, Ok St, Miss St, Ore St, etc.) which stick more to their agricultural roots.
Point is (and coming from an outsider): you guys in Michigan are incredibly fortunate to have U-M and MSU.
I'll admit I'm not fully informed about how the university system works in Illinois.
Is Northwestern public? How about Unviersity of Chicago?
I know Michigan has two top-flight public schools.... but Illinois, aside from UofI, has some internationally known privates as well. Seems like Illinois has plenty of options.
I'll admit I'm not fully informed about how the university system works in Illinois.
Is Northwestern public? How about Unviersity of Chicago?
I know Michigan has two top-flight public schools.... but Illinois, aside from UofI, has some internationally known privates as well. Seems like Illinois has plenty of options.
NU and U of C are totally private.
Other state schools besides UIUC include NIU, ISU, UIC, SIU, among others.
This is a question for TheProf (or anyone who agrees with his observation above):
If U-M has more influence in A2 due to its lone city status, how does the Lansing/MSU relationship of larger city/capital city compare with the Madison/UW and Columbus/OSU relationships? Is Lansing as involved with and sees MSU as a major part of its identity the way that Madison and Columbus see their universities?
I've lived in Ann Arbor and graduated from UM, I was born and raised in Columbus and my mother graduated from OSU. Currently I live in the Lansing area and work there, so I have a pretty good feel for these cities. Columbus is a huge city, its population is more than 700k, so there is so much there that is not dependent on OSU, far more so than here in Lansing. Lansing/EL total don't come close to the size of Columbus, so obviously MSU plays a large role in many aspects of both Lansing and EL's characters. It employs a great number of people and has plenty to offer like sporting events, musicals, plays and such. Ann Arbor is similar size to Lansing, yet its character relies on the university for the most part, since the international community there is part of the reason why there are so many cultural events. In Columbus, this is decidedly less so. Central Ohio has a varied and pretty well integrated workforce, with large numbers of both white and blue collar jobs. Obviously having the largest public school in the nation, it employs so many people and the lack of professional sports makes the Buckeyes the biggest draw in the city, but I definitely wouldn't say that the school is the main reason that the city is there or that it exists. Unlike what makes EL and AA such good places to live and hang out in
Ann Arbor is great place to live, it is beautiful and so much to do. ALL the time. It is more expensive than Lansing but with the market downturn, even A2 has been effected and it is now affordable.
I have lived in Grand Rapids, K-Zoo. I grew up around A2 and Lansing, and let me be the first to say Ann Arbor is by far the best city (Grand Rapids, is a very close #1). Ann Arbor, is a lot more expensive, the GR, K-Zoo, Lansing/EL for sure, but the city itself is absolutely beautiful. I have been to many summer events, Sporting events and shopping in all areas and A2 has the best malls, equal prices, and by far one of the best culture/Arts scene around. I have been to numerous games @ Oldsmobile Park (Home of the Lugnuts in DT Lansing), Common Grounds, and I have visited the MSU campus on numerous occasions. Ann Arbor has got the cleanest DT, offers more for a broad spectrum of people, they have coffee shops and boutiques for the so called "yuppies" they also have a great array of modern restaurants, and fast food chains ect... something for everyone. On all my trips to A2, I myself have never notices this "Yuppie" population, maybe because I CHOOSE not to see that. Who cares if someone wants to dress in Nordstrom or Ralph Lauren, It is not that big of an issue as people have mentioned on here. If your a sports fan, than nothing can beat a day of tailgating on the golf course and sitting in the stadium with 100,000+ screaming U of M fans, there is no better sports venue in the world. I have been to at least 5 MSU games, I have watched Grand Valley play, Eastern Michigan, as well as Western Michigan and the atmosphere you get to experience in Michigan Stadium is BY FAR the best. The only negative thing I say about A2 is it is very expensive to live there, and it might be hard for a 20-24 year old average middle class person to live in a very nice/luxurious Apt or home without spending 800-2500 range. However, Ann Arbor definitely gets my vote any day.
I went to grad school at MSU and lived over in Lansing for 6 years. I have to say that the Lansing/East Lansing area is OK but somewhat disappointing. At the same time, there is a certain energy and desire to make the place better, and it is indeed getting better. The problem is that the place just seems to be about 10-15 years behind even other parts of the Midwest. When I go to my hometown of La Crosse, WI, which you'd think would be very similar being just the other side of the Midwest, I feel like I jump ahead in time. Just to give example, a few years ago, a really wonderful farmer's market popped up on the east side of town and has been very successful. However in most cities, they've been doing farmer's markets for 20-30 years or more. In another example, an abandoned historic building was converted into lofts for (mostly) Cooley Law students right across the street. The fact that it took until 2007 (or so) to realize such an obvious opportunity also confuses me. Again, going back to my hometown example, this dynamic of renewing the historic city center started back in the 1980s and 1990s and now is fully established. Meanwhile, Lansing is just starting on this journey and, luckily has had some admirable successes (e.g. new restaurants and such).
Another thing that confuses me about Lansing is that there just aren't that many people around. To me, the city feels somewhat desolate. Almost every evening I would go jogging around the West Side, downtown and the River Trail, and I always had this feeling like "where the heck is everyone?" While lots of cars were zooming around, I wondered where were all the dog walkers, joggers, etc. Very odd.
Over in EL, things are a bit more dynamic since they have the regular flow of students to keep the economy humming and streets and sidewalks buzzing. There, too, exists a desire to make the city center more vibrant, and it is happening. But the structure of EL (and even the newer parts of MSU) is more car and sprawl oriented than, say, Ann Arbor. While the downtown EL, the older, established neighborhoods and the historic parts of campus are very attractive, they only take up a small area compared with the vast areas surrounding them that are quite unattractive in my opinion. For example, the Frandor shopping center is one of the ugliest shopping districts I have ever seen and except for a sliver that is downtown Okemos, it is somewhat pretty predictable and (in my opinion, boring) modern sprawl.
EL also is missing some things that you would think a college town with 45K students would have. For example, there is no movie theater downtown. Every year the EL Film Festival pops up on campus and is awesome and is mobbed with people. Yet there is no place in EL to see a movie. (You have to drive 15 minutes out of town.) Baffling. Also, the food situation is disappointing. While there are tons of fast food joints (from burgers to pitas to pizza) there aren't a lot of sit-down restaurants where you can enjoy a nice meal. Ann Arbor has more interesting restaurants on one block than has the entire Lansing-EL region.
I would also add that EL and MSU are great for the undergraduate experience, given that the university has many more undergrads than grads (while in AA, it feels like it is the reverse). As a grad student, I always felt like EL and the university really are there to serve the undergrad experience while we grad students always felt like we had to search out things more of interest to us.
Similarly, MSU sports are a huge attraction (and obsession) for the region. Though I like sports, I always felt like they drowned out a lot of other things and that the other cultural offerings like music, theater, etc. are somewhat less dynamic than I would expect for a region of this size.
As far as people go, of course you're probably going to have good luck anywhere. In my experiences, the people I met from campus tended to be fellow grad students who came from all over the world. The university attracts tons of interesting people. Over in Lansing, I met more of an eclectic mix of people doing all kinds of things since the city is less dependent on the university - e.g. lots of people who work in state government, workers/retirees at GM, nurses, teachers, etc. I can't compare this with people from Ann Arbor, but I definitely didn't see a lot of snobbery.
If I were to grade the place, I would give the amenities of area a B-. I would give the people an A.
So anyway, it is of course hard to sum up an entire region in a few paragraphs, but these are some general impressions anyway.
Well my soon to be wife and I currently live in Kalamazoo and are looking to move a little ways (family issues). We are both 20 and will be attending a community college (both have classes we want/need). We like the college atmosphere and college town feel (we like Kalamazoo for its college feel). We both work 6 days a week (crap jobs), so we don't have a lot of time to go check them out till a month or so, so I thought I would just ask you guys first. Thanks!
Ann Arbor would be the better choice.
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Some thoughts on Lansing and East Lansing
