[michigannewstalk-com]

Just curious on the immigration situation is in Michigan? With the economic situation and the jobless rate up...do you think immigration is a factor?

[trinkit]

ILLEGAL immigration is a factor in this entire country.

[Paddington]

You sound like one of those UAW factory workers that go around lynching Chinese people in the Detroit area.

Anyway, immigrants aren't responsible for taking your job. For that matter, Detroit has very few immigrants compared to other similar sized metros like Houston, Dallas, Atlanta, etc. all of which are growing faster, and much more prosperous economically.

[MittenDweller82]

Originally Posted by michigannewstalk-com

Just curious on the immigration situation is in Michigan? With the economic situation and the jobless rate up...do you think immigration is a factor?

Were you meaning to talk about emigration? According to the census bureau's 2006 estimate, the population change from 2000-2006 was -1.9% (192,000 people) , interestingly, this number included mostly people aged 20-29. Of course, there are people immigrating here but the number of people leaving outweighs this. The amount of college graduates leaving the state that were once residents is making up a large percentage of the emigration total. The census wont be out for another 2 years but I think the data provided by universities, and local governments shows the number of people leaving continues to grow faster than we are gaining.

[khfar]

Immigration? I'd say that aside from Middle-Easterners and Russians, Michigan is pretty darned low. It is so weird to me, honestly. Coming from a completely different area of the country, I was used to living in a huge melting pot. I miss that!

[windfarmer]

Originally Posted by Paddington

You sound like one of those UAW factory workers that go around lynching Chinese people in the Detroit area.

Anyway, immigrants aren't responsible for taking your job. For that matter, Detroit has very few immigrants compared to other similar sized metros like Houston, Dallas, Atlanta, etc. all of which are growing faster, and much more prosperous economically.

Haha Paddington.

Very true.. I don't understand how people accuse immigrants of "taking" the jobs they want. When I think of Immigrants, I don't just think of poor illegals from Mexico and southward; When I think of immigrants, automatically in my mind I think of the hundreds of Indians (from Kerala) that occupy the Ford IT building in Dearborn. They're certainly not stealing the jobs of those who are complaining.. Most likely the people whom I have heard complaining like that, don't even have a four year degree. And even then, I've never heard of an American (by birth) being turned down from a computer programmer / IT Consultant job simply because a Chinese or Indian immigrant came by. Chinese and Indians are not responsible for hiring. EMPLOYERS are.. be they American, Indian, Chinese, White, Black, Yellow, Green, whatever.. Just like Toyota and Honda are not responsible for the UAW's blue-collar woes.. Ford, GM and Chrysler's ineptitude, mismanagement and lack of foresight are the culprits.

I have known a LOT of chinese immigrants (when I used to live in California) who were engineers. They used to tell me stories about how life in China was.. How they had no food sometimes. How they had to work so hard to get to where they are today, because they had to compete with 100,000 other kids at their colleges.. So they had to prove themselves two ways: 1) in China they had to prove they were the best so they could get into the right schools/programs 2) apply to come to America so they could be accepted in a country that offered them a much better opportunity.

People who complain about "immigrants" don't realize how hard some people work to get here legally. Many of these chinese guys I knew, were extremely smart and had graduate degrees in ME or EE.. The only complainers I've seen in my day were beer-guzzling, arm-chair critics home from their skill-less vocation.


And immigrants go where the jobs are a-plenty. In what industry are the jobs "a-plenty" here in Detroit?

Oooh! Maybe all the Mexicans are gonna take the lawn-mowing jobs!!!! RUN!!

[Cherry]

Detroit only looks like it has fewer immigrants because Hamtramck isn't included; 41% of Hamtramckans are foreign-born (Polish, Ukrainian, Yemeni, Albanian, Bengali, Bosnian). From Hamtramck, most move to Farmington Hills, Warren or Sterling Heights. Immigrants take jobs that no one else wants, and create jobs for skilled workers because they require the services of lawyers, doctors, etc.

[Sparrow_temp]

Mark me down as 1 of those people complaining about the Indian and Chinese immigrants. These H1B visa immigrants are a major factor in the IT industry. They drive down wages and eliminate a lot of entry-level jobs which new college grads used to be able to pick up to gain experience.

The big lie is that any of these workers are needed in this country. There ARE qualified Americans in this country to take these jobs. Corporate America has simply discovered that rather than saving money by outsourcing jobs that they can still save money and have more control over the product by simply importing foreign workers. And to this date, they are not really getting any bad publicity for doing so as they would by shipping all of the work overseas. Even if you were to believe that we did not graduate enough of these workers to fill demand - what historically would happen is that wages would go up and colleges would churn out more graduates in these fields as a result. What is happening now is that we have a glut of IT workers who cannot find work and employers importing foreign labor. This drives wages down and provides no incentive for students to pursue these technical fields since they simply incur debt, cannot find a job, and find wages lower than if they had simply pursued a trade skill rather than a higher education.

The H1B visa program is to white collar workers what the illegal Mexican immigrant is to blue collar workers. The same old rational is used too -- there just aren't Americans to do these jobs. Don't believe it. It's just a way to get labor below market rate.

Originally Posted by windfarmer

Haha Paddington.
When I think of immigrants, automatically in my mind I think of the hundreds of Indians (from Kerala) that occupy the Ford IT building in Dearborn. They're certainly not stealing the jobs of those who are complaining..

[mkfarnam]

Originally Posted by michigannewstalk-com

Just curious on the immigration situation is in Michigan? With the economic situation and the jobless rate up...do you think immigration is a factor?

Are you referring to Legal or Illegal immigrants?

[windfarmer]

Originally Posted by Sparrow_temp

Mark me down as 1 of those people complaining about the Indian and Chinese immigrants. These H1B visa immigrants are a major factor in the IT industry. They drive down wages and eliminate a lot of entry-level jobs which new college grads used to be able to pick up to gain experience.

The big lie is that any of these workers are needed in this country. There ARE qualified Americans in this country to take these jobs. Corporate America has simply discovered that rather than saving money by outsourcing jobs that they can still save money and have more control over the product by simply importing foreign workers. And to this date, they are not really getting any bad publicity for doing so as they would by shipping all of the work overseas. Even if you were to believe that we did not graduate enough of these workers to fill demand - what historically would happen is that wages would go up and colleges would churn out more graduates in these fields as a result. What is happening now is that we have a glut of IT workers who cannot find work and employers importing foreign labor. This drives wages down and provides no incentive for students to pursue these technical fields since they simply incur debt, cannot find a job, and find wages lower than if they had simply pursued a trade skill rather than a higher education.

The H1B visa program is to white collar workers what the illegal Mexican immigrant is to blue collar workers. The same old rational is used too -- there just aren't Americans to do these jobs. Don't believe it. It's just a way to get labor below market rate.

Touche Sparrow_temp.

You bring up a very good point with respect to the H1B. I had not factored that whole charade in.. I didn't think the US gave that many per year, however I will say that the H1B doesn't mean these workers can stay indefinitely.. At least I hope not.

And again I hear you on your point where you say that "there just aren't Americans to do these jobs.." I can see why companies would obviously hire those willing to work for less. Remember, capitalism is where contentment is measured in pure numbers. It's not about how happy you are or how little billy's parents are going to pay the heating bill this December.. It's about pure profit.. As a capitalistic society (which is actually a very good thing), companies don't care if Joe Sixpack works for them or if Vikram Patel fresh from Bangalore does the job.. The only bottom line, IS the bottom line. Who will get the work done for the least amount of overhead. What are the shareholders going to think? That's what they think when they hire you, me or Mr. Patel.

I also see IT as a rapidly changing industry.. perhaps more so than many other traditional fields. The fact that it never remains the same for long in terms of technology, software, hardware, etc.. means that it is a field where workers must CONSTANTLY keep up to date – very up to date in fact – with the latest of everything. From my own personal experience, having worked in Flash, I had just mastered AS2 when finally AS3 came. I also gave up because I saw 14 year old kids in India who knew much more advanced programming than I did. Go figure! And I went to college for this.


Well the bottom line is that the world is shrinking so fast. Many other nations that previously were considered "banana republics" are now coming up in the world as important, emerging economies. Turkey, India, China, Brazil, Russia, etc.. to name a few. Plus with Europe becoming increasingly united and borders disappearing, it appears likely that in order to really compete in the world, we are going to have to play the game of "globalization".. However "proud" we are to be Americans, doesn't make any difference to the rest of the world.. they're too busy worrying about exporting stuff to us and other countries, producing, manufacturing, etc.. to worry about how proud we are of our past glories. The real "American dream" today, should be to extend deeper trade relations with the rest of world, aim to produce for cheaper here, and continue to innovate as we always have. Only then can we continue to be a global leader. I realize this is off-topic, but I believe that UAW, AFL-CIO and other labor unions are only hindering our progress. Our nation is really becoming too diluted with lazy workers, people demanding an ever increasingly higher standard of living, but not willing to put the effort into saving nor producing to achieve this.

On another tangent, in Hamtramck a few weeks ago, I spotted about 200 American Axle workers "striking" by the plant. They had umbrellas, arm-chairs, coolers, etc. I thought I was at the beach for a minute. If I were out of a job, I would hit monster, hotjobs or just send out resumes like crazy rather than fight with my ex-boss by picketing outside his office. Workers should have rights no doubt, but labor organizations have made a mockery or these so-called "rights."