[crbcrbrgv]

Originally Posted by Anthera

Do their graduate school programs come anywhere near MSU's? MSU has a law school, two medical schools (md & od) as well as MBA and MA programs. The lack of a law school kept MSU back in the rankings for years.

I think MSU's field hockey team could beat Western on a good day.

Sorry, I was only comparing undergrad. I believe they MSU and Western are not too different when one compares undergrad only. If you went to Western and did well, you would likely have to transfer to MSU or elsewhere for graduate school.

[edsg25]

I would say that the national model for any state in the US is to have either one of two flagship institutions. States with one (such as Illinois and Wisconsin) have schools that run the gamut from law, medicine, business, and liberal arts on to the technology fields, like engineering and including agriculture.

In other states, the traditional flagship is generally the oldest school in state and is heavy into the liberal arts with the obvious medical and law schools. As states, Michigan (U-M, MSU) and Indiana (IU, Purdue) seem to follow that model.

No state, I believe, has ever identified three flagships, as such. One reason may be the cost of maintaining three such insistitutions, but there is more to it than that. Flagships serve their state through exclusivity in being able to serve the top students in state....with at least the hope of keeping the in state after graduation. Also, the prestige of these limited-in-number institutions attracts research facilities and other ancelorary business as well as bringing the state prestige.

Even states as large as California (Cal, UCLA) and Texas (UT, A&M) don't really exceed the two flagship model. And many feel that the inability of one or two of the SUNY's to break through into that status has hurt NY State.

In Michigan, IMHO, it would be hard to make an argument that any other school in-state but U-M and MSU could fill the flagship role. Wayne certainly has a strong urban university status and other instate schools such as WMU and Mich Tech have very good reputations.

But flagship implies more than just high academics. Look at your neighboring state of Ohio. Ohio may well be an example where non-flagship institutions (like Miami) can easily challenge the academics of the flagship (Ohio State)....yet not have flagship status. In Virginia, nobody is going to argue the stellar academics and national reputation of W&M, but it is not nearly as a complete a university (curriculum wise) as UVa.

[Ann_Arbor]

^ I see your point, I just think MSU is closer to Western than it is to Michigan.

[Anthera]

I think MSU, Western and UM are all very different from each other, UM is a top flight research University with almost every one of its graduate programs nationally ranked. MSU is a great university with some very good graduate programs. Western is a good university than is primarily focused on undergraduate education.

UM an MSU have national reputations, Western is primarily known instate.

When I was at Michigan, I knew some people who had chosen MSU over UM, usually over scholarship $$$(MSU was trying very hard to get Merit Scholars and also rans), but I never knew anyone who chose WMU over Michigan.

[TheProf]

Originally Posted by Ann_Arbor

^ I see your point, I just think MSU is closer to Western than it is to Michigan.

As a U-M student, I'm not surprised, Ann Arbor as you are, no doubt, biased... Fact is, Western, though a nice school, is not really close to being on MSU's level, grad OR undergrad. As for undergrad, alone, it lacks the facilities, quality of profs, quality of students (including geographically outside the state), quality and breadth of programs, or cultural faculties, history/tradition, name recognition, and on and on... of MSU. MSU is a national/international institution. Most people haven't heard of Western, academically, outside Michigan, and even within the State, for the best and brightest students, the decision usually is UM or MSU... Western, frankly, ranks behind Tech in that sense. Fact is, Western really isn't close to MSU, academically, although it is probably the best of the "directional" Michigan pubic U's (though both Grand Valley and Oakland both could make a strong argument in terms of the Michigan regional publics).

Sorry Ann Arbor, MSU is much closer to UM than Western.

[TheProf]

Originally Posted by edsg25

I would say that the national model for any state in the US is to have either one of two flagship institutions. States with one (such as Illinois and Wisconsin) have schools that run the gamut from law, medicine, business, and liberal arts on to the technology fields, like engineering and including agriculture.

In other states, the traditional flagship is generally the oldest school in state and is heavy into the liberal arts with the obvious medical and law schools. As states, Michigan (U-M, MSU) and Indiana (IU, Purdue) seem to follow that model.

No state, I believe, has ever identified three flagships, as such. One reason may be the cost of maintaining three such insistitutions, but there is more to it than that. Flagships serve their state through exclusivity in being able to serve the top students in state....with at least the hope of keeping the in state after graduation. Also, the prestige of these limited-in-number institutions attracts research facilities and other ancelorary business as well as bringing the state prestige.

Even states as large as California (Cal, UCLA) and Texas (UT, A&M) don't really exceed the two flagship model. And many feel that the inability of one or two of the SUNY's to break through into that status has hurt NY State.

In Michigan, IMHO, it would be hard to make an argument that any other school in-state but U-M and MSU could fill the flagship role. Wayne certainly has a strong urban university status and other instate schools such as WMU and Mich Tech have very good reputations.

But flagship implies more than just high academics. Look at your neighboring state of Ohio. Ohio may well be an example where non-flagship institutions (like Miami) can easily challenge the academics of the flagship (Ohio State)....yet not have flagship status. In Virginia, nobody is going to argue the stellar academics and national reputation of W&M, but it is not nearly as a complete a university (curriculum wise) as UVa.

Don't forget, edge, that technically, Cal (Berkeley) and UCLA are the same university though with different campuses. MSU and U-M, however, are totally separate and both are semi-autonomous, as is Wayne, as all 3 are recognized in the state constitution and have elected boards, meaning less chance for political interference. U-M, of course, has the longest such status -- dating back to 1850; MSU to 1907 --(not sure of Wayne's, but I'm sure it's much more recent)...

... also, to something you said before. It's not surprising MSU would be the nation's first agricultural (and separated from the original flagship)... Michigan, historically, has been among the most abundant agricultural states; part of the reason why, besides private Cornell (yep, this one Ivy is a half-public, land grant coll), MSU had the wealthiest federal land grant endowment which was based on extensive tracts of fertile land asigned in each state to support its land grant college.

Btw edge, I totally agree with you about William & Mary. Yes, it is a state college, and a very prestigious one at that -- it's near Ivy level in that sense. But it, historically, was an old (2nd oldest in the USA after Harvard) private liberal arts college until the post Civil War Reconstruction era ravaged its finances causing it to close and be rescued by Virginia which made it public, while it still retains a small-ish, private-ish orientation... to me, W&M's not a real public U although, of course, technically, it is.

[Ann_Arbor]

Originally Posted by TheProf

As a U-M student, I'm not surprised, Ann Arbor as you are, no doubt, biased... Fact is, Western, though a nice school, is not really close to being on MSU's level, grad OR undergrad. As for undergrad, alone, it lacks the facilities, quality of profs, quality of students (including geographically outside the state), quality and breadth of programs, or cultural faculties, history/tradition, name recognition, and on and on... of MSU. MSU is a national/international institution. Most people haven't heard of Western, academically, outside Michigan, and even within the State, for the best and brightest students, the decision usually is UM or MSU... Western, frankly, ranks behind Tech in that sense. Fact is, Western really isn't close to MSU, academically, although it is probably the best of the "directional" Michigan pubic U's (though both Grand Valley and Oakland both could make a strong argument in terms of the Michigan regional publics).

Sorry Ann Arbor, MSU is much closer to UM than Western.

You don't have to apologize, it's a subjective- they're are too many differences between the schools to accurately compare them. Generally though, I consider Michigan. Of coarse it's fair to say I'm a little biased because I go to Michigan, but I'm a grad student Michigan- I went out of state for undergrad and didn't consider either school. Also, MSU didn't have the program I wanted to go into. That said, I have no real need to hype Michigan further above MSU- my future employer isn't going to have to choose between a Michigan grad over one from MSU.

Also, looking at this criteria- "facilities, quality of profs, quality of students (including geographically outside the state), quality and breadth of programs, or cultural faculties, history/tradition, name recognition"- you can't set Michigan and MSU close. I still think Michigan is in a league of its own and MSU and Western are more similar.

Student-profile wise- 89% of MSU students come from the state, comparable to Western (91%), while Michigan has lowest percentage of in state students (62%). Michigan's acceptance rate is 50-55% and MSU's is 70-75%. History/tradition is highly subjective, though when you ask people from outside the state/country, Michigan gets a lot more respect than the others, and many stories that come out of MSU, unfortunately, set up a party-school stigma. e.g. Michigan_State_University_student_riots

Again, these are my opinions- I know students from both schools (undergrad and grad) and have lived in this state before attending Michigan. In the end, it doesn't really matter for me personally, and I don't feel totally comfortable comparing three schools when I attend one.

[edsg25]

Originally Posted by Ann_Arbor

Student-profile wise- 89% of MSU students come from the state, comparable to Western (91%), while Michigan has lowest percentage of in state students (62%). [color=black]

Ann Arbor, I do find percentage of in-state students at public universities an interesting stat, but it is sometimes misleading. Not, mind you, in the example you gave for U-M's 62% which is quality related: there is a lot of demand for a U-M education.

But there are other factors than just quality of institution that are play. Take my state of Illinois. Ours is the largest state in the midwest and we have in UIUC, only one flagship school. How does that play out:

UIUC, a stellar institution, is in the position that it contains the only flagship slots for high powered students in Illinois. U of I has, as a result, always been 90% Illinoisians.

Let's take it one step further. Chicago Area kids, partly due to the limited number of slots at UIUC, often look elsewhere for college. Lots of locations, but let's be honest: the big three are Iowa City, Bloomington, and Madison. Is it possible that for a suburban Chicago kid could find it easier to get into Madison than Champaign? Yes. Does that mean that UIUC is a better school than UW-Madison? I doubt anyone would make that argument (although they really are peer instituitions). Madison is easier to get into than Champaign because the state of Wisconsin doesn't put the state populaiton pressure on it that UIUC gets.

On to Iowa City...plenty of out-of-state students, very heavily suburban Chicago (they call the school the Univ of Ill at Iowa as a joke). Iowa is by far the smallest state in the region and can more easily fill those slots with out of state kids. That Iowa is Big Ten doesn't go unnoticed by kids in Chicago (or, for that matter, kids in Milw and Mpls).

Go west to Calif and you will see the whole UC system has to serve the nation state that is California. The percentages are very much true at Cal and UCLA, the stars of the system and national powerhouses.

[ckhthankgod]

Originally Posted by TheProf

Don't forget, edge, that technically, Cal (Berkeley) and UCLA are the same university though with different campuses. MSU and U-M, however, are totally separate and both are semi-autonomous, as is Wayne, as all 3 are recognized in the state constitution and have elected boards, meaning less chance for political interference. U-M, of course, has the longest such status -- dating back to 1850; MSU to 1907 --(not sure of Wayne's, but I'm sure it's much more recent)...

... also, to something you said before. It's not surprising MSU would be the nation's first agricultural (and separated from the original flagship)... Michigan, historically, has been among the most abundant agricultural states; part of the reason why, besides private Cornell (yep, this one Ivy is a half-public, land grant coll), MSU had the wealthiest federal land grant endowment which was based on extensive tracts of fertile land asigned in each state to support its land grant college.

Btw edge, I totally agree with you about William & Mary. Yes, it is a state college, and a very prestigious one at that -- it's near Ivy level in that sense. But it, historically, was an old (2nd oldest in the USA after Harvard) private liberal arts college until the post Civil War Reconstruction era ravaged its finances causing it to close and be rescued by Virginia which made it public, while it still retains a small-ish, private-ish orientation... to me, W&M's not a real public U although, of course, technically, it is.

People do not realize that Cornell, while being an Ivy, has a strong Ag presence on campus. I went to MSU for 3 years and can remember getting ice cream after class. Cornell has the same thing and probably has a different feel in comparison to the other Ivy League schools. Ithaca is a cool town too.

Here in NY, we have the SUNY system, which is similar to the California or Texas systems. We have 4 University centers in Stony Brook, Binghamton, Albany and Buffalo. Then, we have the State institutions, called University colleges, like Oswego(where I grad from), Cortland, Plattsburgh, Morrisville, Brockport, Buffalo, New Paltz, Oneonta, Geneseo and Potsdam. This goes to the Community college level and there are some 2 and/or 4 years Technology colleges. SUNY: Map of Campuses

[mofromcheboygankalamazoo]

Originally Posted by Anthera

I think MSU, Western and UM are all very different from each other, UM is a top flight research University with almost every one of its graduate programs nationally ranked. MSU is a great university with some very good graduate programs. Western is a good university than is primarily focused on undergraduate education.

UM an MSU have national reputations, Western is primarily known instate.

When I was at Michigan, I knew some people who had chosen MSU over UM, usually over scholarship $$$(MSU was trying very hard to get Merit Scholars and also rans), but I never knew anyone who chose WMU over Michigan.

I chose Western over Michigan! I was planning on majoring in Education and to be honest there are not many elementary teachers who have degrees from Michigan...i chose which school i thought would give me the best education and prepare me the most for the classroom and i strongly believe that i made the right choice- plus money-wise i could afford WMU a lot more
I will not get involved in your discussion, i will just put in that i was the the third generation from my family to go to western and both my grandfather and father went on to be lawyers after undergrad from western...two very intelligent people!............................
now both my brother and my sister went to/go to michigan..............
MSU was never an option for me! NEVER....even though my guidance counselor really wanted me to go there