Michigan Property Taxes are BAD (Detroit, Grand Rapids: relocation, housing, rental)

[TurboState]

Originally Posted by magellan

$3000 on $112K assessed value. Assessed value is not market value. Perhaps you should read MY posts more closely. In addition, you get part of that back as a Homestead Property Tax credit on your state taxes (or at least I did in 2005 and 2006).

The transfer tax is not exactly like a 6% sales tax (it amounts to less than 1%). Sure, I don't like paying taxes either, but the State and local governments need to run somehow.

Then they can have their property tax and dump the sales/tobacco/booze/income and other crap taxes.. Thats how New Hampshire does it.. Living there you only pay ONE TAX, a property tax, and ironically enough more often than not they are LOWER than in Michigan! Saying the home sales tax is "Only 1%" like that makes it fine is ridiculous! Thats a useless $3,000.00 tax on a 300K home, and for what??? Worse, the buyer gets his assessments UNCAPPED and further robbed of hard earned cash.

I find it funny people actually are complacent in paying taxes.. Like cattle being led to the slaughter. There will *NEVER* be fiscal responsibility in Michigan because of stupid people in this state. We'll keep paying higher and higher taxes, and people will keep making excuses about why they need it. Is it any wonder we're headed for the sewer?

[magellan]

Originally Posted by TurboState

Then they can have their property tax and dump the sales/tobacco/booze/income and other crap taxes.. Thats how New Hampshire does it.. Living there you only pay ONE TAX, a property tax, and ironically enough more often than not they are LOWER than in Michigan! Saying the home sales tax is "Only 1%" like that makes it fine is ridiculous! Thats a useless $3,000.00 tax on a 300K home, and for what??? Worse, the buyer gets his assessments UNCAPPED and further robbed of hard earned cash.

I find it funny people actually are complacent in paying taxes.. Like cattle being led to the slaughter. There will *NEVER* be fiscal responsibility in Michigan because of stupid people in this state. We'll keep paying higher and higher taxes, and people will keep making excuses about why they need it. Is it any wonder we're headed for the sewer?

Then move to New Hampshire Mr. Alarmist. In the meantime, you should refrain from referring to other people on this forum and the world around you as "stupid" and a herd of cattle.

[TurboState]

Is there a better term for people that actually try and justify their excessive taxation?

[jimmi3577]

Originally Posted by Need_affordable_home

Before you guys jump to conclusions, will you tell me the percentage of property taxes? Because I think its alot cheaper than you think. Houses are extremely cheap in MI so the taxes should be low on one of those affordable houses.

he said she can't raise taxes anymore because all the indiustry and business are leaving the state, well duh! We have the wonderful Michigan singloe business tax where you are assesed at what they think you could make in the type of business you have. Talk about dumb. So that means a little party store in Michigans Upper peninsula shoule be on par with a store in the Detroit area? I owned a business and I was disabled, well the State of Michigan even after I told them I had no sales siezed all my bank accounts and took the money out of them because they believed that I should have a certain ammount of sales and this was based on other companies in my field of work. Problem is I am a one man company, and most people in my field of work have 100 employees, and make a fortune. I don't! So when you think that Michigan is such a wonderful place to buy a home think again, according to the News, CNN, FOX, ABC and the like we have 1 out of 21 homes in foreclosure. And the State/local goverments here are notorious for over stating the value of a home and Taxing accordingly, so that $29,000 house will most likely be valued at $79,000 so they can suck more money from you. And good luck trying to appeal, the courts are stacked in the States favor, and you will loose your appeal. I live near Petoskey Michigan, when I moved here we had a booming economy and Petoskey was growing fast this area was the fastest growth area on the nation with Tarverse City and Gaylord in the top ten cities of growth. Well that was under Govenor Engler, and we were 11th nationwide as far as the economy, well it's 2007 and we are now 50th, and the State is dead. it's amazing how from 1995 when I moved here till today, we went from having a bright future to having no jobs, and businesses leaving so fast we can't keep up the list anymore. And the people re-elected this moron. OH Good news, she wants to Tax all utilities, your water, sewer, Heat, electric, phone, cable, satellite, and internet. I am sure this will bring people back to the State. We can't afford heating our homes and businesses now, and a State excise tax I am sure will help.
Wyoming here I come...

[magellan]

Originally Posted by TurboState

Is there a better term for people that actually try and justify their excessive taxation?

If you are trying to get people to join your cause, you can't call them and the general population stupid. Perhaps "uninformed" or "lacking important comparisons or details". Keep educating the public on these things, as certainly some of them may be warranted. For me, we've purchased two new homes in 10 years, and they weren't anywhere near $300K (as most Michigan homes are not) so that $1000 - $1800 transfer tax did not seem like much of a burden when it's wrapped into the total cash you need to bring to closing. Are we the only state that has real estate transfer taxes? I don't know but I doubt it.

But you can't compare Michigan to New Hampshire. You should find states that are more closely aligned with Michigan in size and stature, infrastucture, etc..and see what their tax structures are like. From what I have read, Michigan falls right in the middle for tax burdens to businesses and individuals. New Hampshire has a Gross State Product of something like $48 Billion, whereas Michigan's is more like $400 Billion. There is a ton more commerce in Michigan that needs a much larger infrastructure to support. Michigan can never be New Hampshire.

Plus, what many people fail to take into account when comparing states-to-states in tax burdens, is that many cities and counties in the U.S. have much higher local taxes than their state averages. Michigan does not allow local sales taxes, but many states do, so their sales taxes in the different cities are much higher than our 6%. For instance, when you take the state and local sales taxes and combine them, for different cities you get this (just a few):

Charlotte and Raleigh: 7 and 7.25%
Austin: 8.25%
Denver: 8.6%
Kansas City: 7.48%
Nashville: 9.25%
Atlanta: 8.00%
Minneapolis: 7.00%
Chicago: 9.00%
Louisville: 7.00%
Des Moines: 7.00%
Columbus: 6.75%

If a sales tax is less objectionable for people, maybe Michigan should look at shifting some of the property tax burden to a higher retail sales tax (or fund mass transit projects with a higher sales tax like just about every city in the country is doing). Then the tax is on disposable income, not on your property value (and it targets everyone who spends money, not just land owners, but more equitably).

Just a thought.

By the way, I take every state and federal tax deduction I can get within the law. But I also understand that taxes do pay for a lot of important things and not just welfare programs.

[jimmi3577]

Originally Posted by TurboState

Then they can have their property tax and dump the sales/tobacco/booze/income and other crap taxes.. Thats how New Hampshire does it.. Living there you only pay ONE TAX, a property tax, and ironically enough more often than not they are LOWER than in Michigan! Saying the home sales tax is "Only 1%" like that makes it fine is ridiculous! Thats a useless $3,000.00 tax on a 300K home, and for what??? Worse, the buyer gets his assessments UNCAPPED and further robbed of hard earned cash.

I find it funny people actually are complacent in paying taxes.. Like cattle being led to the slaughter. There will *NEVER* be fiscal responsibility in Michigan because of stupid people in this state. We'll keep paying higher and higher taxes, and people will keep making excuses about why they need it. Is it any wonder we're headed for the sewer?

Am I wrong? But I remember the constitution disallows taxes on property. So why isn't there a revolution? We allow China to sell the crap at China-mart (Walmart) stores which is mostly made by slave labor in the prison systems, who are people who dared to mention the word freedom. Our founding fathers said we were to tax imports, not property. Wake up America, before we have an econmy like Mexicos.

we now allow Illegals to suck off our welfare and social security, and George Bush wants all illegals to have full social security coverage not just SSI. Yet they never paid into the system like I did for just short of 40 years. Yet I am denied and can't walk I am blind in one eye, and am going blind in my only good eye, I am now profoundly deaf. I have 2 blown disks in my back, and suffer severe diabetic neuropathy, along with the fact I am now a brittle diabetic. But they turn me down and down the road a healthy robost 400 pound young man gets full social security because he is I quote "too fat to work" I know of 100's of healthy Native Americans who never paid taxes, because they are tribal and exempt, but collect social security, and get their $2500 plus for the tribe yearly, of don't forget food stamps and medicad/medicare coverage. Of by the way I am native american but I have another disablity, I worked all my life and I am fair skinned (white looking) and I can't get the social security I paid for, and the State just denied me saying I quote again " we beleive since you have worked you can find some type of work that suits your present disablity" But in Michigan if you been convicted of a felony, you are automatically qualified for full welfare benifits. So don't worry about the pedophiles when they get out of prison for raping 3 year olds they will have a good life.

And it didn't matter that the hospital social worker and 3 doctors said I am fully disabled, I was still denied. I was also taken on the side and told if I want to qualify, do this. Request a hearing in front of a judge, and don't bathe for 4 days before, don't comb my hair, and act like I am retarded, and don't comprehend anything told to me, and I will qualify. This was from someone who works in the system, and I quote " the system does not base it on need it bases it on social economic status and protected class" meaning If I am obviously useless and unemployable due to attitude and or stupid, i will get disability. I was also told this by 11 people I sought out that succesfully got disability. I also know healthy young men in their 20's who are of far better than average intellect, who have FULL benefits, but never worked and refuse to take a job, because they like to hang out and party. This is from their own mouths.

This State is a joke, now...

[ATLDavid]

This has been an informative discussion thread -- quite useful as I contemplate a job offer in Ypsilanti.

I live in Atlanta (inside the perimeter) and I am unpleasantly surprised by the much higher property taxes in Michigan. Here's the comparison: I live in a very average 1970s house with an assessed property value of about $340k and my annual tax bill is $4200. Shopping on realtor.com, I found a newer, smaller (c. 1/3 less sq ft) home in Ypsilanti priced at $230k. The annual tax bill: $5330.

So buying a house in Michigan that costs 33% less and is 33% smaller, I'll pay 27% more in property taxes.

It's not a deal breaker, but it's giving me pause as to whether the move is wise. Georgia state income tax is a flat 6% and sales tax is about 8% (except for food which is 1-2%). Besides, I'm not sure I want to battle the winters in Michigan--I HATE snow!

And in response to an earlier comment that lower taxes are at the expense of Georgia's educational system, the schools here--kindergarten through the very well-funded Univeristy System--are flush with cash and are the envy of the southeast.

Thanks and I'd appreciate your comments.

[jumpygh]

Originally Posted by ATLDavid

And in response to an earlier comment that lower taxes are at the expense of Georgia's educational system, the schools here--kindergarten through the very well-funded Univeristy System--are flush with cash and are the envy of the southeast.

Plus, spending on education isn't in any way tied to performance. If it was, the school districts spending the most money per pupil would produce the best results. That's not anywhere near the case, however.

In 2004 Michigan spent the 12th most per pupil out of 50 states. For that we have the worst state economy. Clearly, spending more on education would do absolutely nothing (other than enrich the teacher's union).

[magellan]

Originally Posted by ATLDavid

This has been an informative discussion thread -- quite useful as I contemplate a job offer in Ypsilanti.

I live in Atlanta (inside the perimeter) and I am unpleasantly surprised by the much higher property taxes in Michigan. Here's the comparison: I live in a very average 1970s house with an assessed property value of about $340k and my annual tax bill is $4200. Shopping on realtor.com, I found a newer, smaller (c. 1/3 less sq ft) home in Ypsilanti priced at $230k. The annual tax bill: $5330.

So buying a house in Michigan that costs 33% less and is 33% smaller, I'll pay 27% more in property taxes.

It's not a deal breaker, but it's giving me pause as to whether the move is wise. Georgia state income tax is a flat 6% and sales tax is about 8% (except for food which is 1-2%). Besides, I'm not sure I want to battle the winters in Michigan--I HATE snow!

And in response to an earlier comment that lower taxes are at the expense of Georgia's educational system, the schools here--kindergarten through the very well-funded Univeristy System--are flush with cash and are the envy of the southeast.

Thanks and I'd appreciate your comments.

When I first read that I thought there's no way that tax amount could be right, but looking at the property tax tables, much of the Ypsilanti area/Washtenaw County millage rates are pretty high:

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/ta...s_193393_7.pdf
(Washtenaw County page 144) Look at the first column to the right for primary home millage rates.

Michigan's property taxes are computed using taxable value, which is about 1/2 your market value/1000 x millage rate. Essentially if the millage rate is 30.00 mills, it would equal 1.5% x your recent market value to make it easier. That would put the listing you saw at about 46 mills, which is very high. Livingston County to the North is growing pretty steadily, and probably because their tax rates are much lower.

They are not at all representative of most areas in Michigan. Not that this helps you, but we are in Kent County in West Michigan (page 70 same table), and most of the communities range in the 25 - 30 mills, or about 1.5% of your market value. A $230,000 home in our particular township would be about $3100/year.

Plus, you can get a homestead deduction on your tax return, depending on your tax status. Ours equaled about 20% this year, so our effective property tax rate was about 23 mills or 1.15%.

Michigan's Income Tax Rate is a flat 3.9%, and there are exemptions for spouses and for children.

Sales tax is 6% across the board. The State does not allow local sales taxes like Georgia does.

If you HATE snow, you'll have a rough time, even in the Ypsi area. It doesn't get as much snow as West Michigan, but it does snow.

What is it about snow that you "hate"? (just curious).

BTW: Our universities are top notch and turn out well-educated students. We just have a hard time keeping them.

[athletesfoot]

[quote=jimmi3577;539657]
we now allow Illegals to suck off our welfare and social security, and George Bush wants all illegals to have full social security coverage not just SSI. Yet they never paid into the system like I did for just short of 40 years. (oops, end quote here, I must have deleted the formatting code!)


I just had to comment on this statement - most illegal immigrants pay a ton of money into Social Security and all other forms of income tax. They get fake ID's that are "overlooked" by their employers. So, they can be "legally" hired and paid a check each week, getting taxed like the rest of us. Then when immigration gets too close for comfort, they move on and get a different fake ID and get hired somewhere else, etc. Finally, when they should be eligible for Social Security, they can't collect because they don't have a social security number. Of course, they still get health care and other treatment without being able to pay for it.

I'm not taking sides on this issue, I feel sorry for anyone who pays into the system and then doesn't get the benefits. Considering the dire straits of the system now, we keep getting warnings that it won't be available for us 30 somethings who also work hard and pay into it.