[TeacherMan]

[quote=athletesfoot;1049032]

Originally Posted by jimmi3577

we now allow Illegals to suck off our welfare and social security, and George Bush wants all illegals to have full social security coverage not just SSI. Yet they never paid into the system like I did for just short of 40 years.

I just had to comment on this statement - most illegal immigrants pay a ton of money into Social Security and all other forms of income tax. They get fake ID's that are "overlooked" by their employers. So, they can be "legally" hired and paid a check each week, getting taxed like the rest of us. Then when immigration gets too close for comfort, they move on and get a different fake ID and get hired somewhere else, etc. Finally, when they should be eligible for Social Security, they can't collect because they don't have a social security number. Of course, they still get health care and other treatment without being able to pay for it.

I'm not taking sides on this issue, I feel sorry for anyone who pays into the system and then doesn't get the benefits. Considering the dire straits of the system now, we keep getting warnings that it won't be available for us 30 somethings who also work hard and pay into it.

You are EXACTLY right on! And if you (jimmi) want all of "them" to leave...talk to any farmer who employs "them"! Do you want to pay $5 for a head of lettuce? They produce and contribute ABUNDANTLY more than the "suck off" the system. Most of them work hard, ask for little in return, cause little to no trouble, and work hard some more.
I am sorry you can not get your SSDI, I truly feel bad for you...but don't blame migrant farm workers for that!! I won't get any when I retire and I don't blame them... In fact...their unclaimed contributions are probably enabling this mismanaged system to exist LONGER than it otherwise would have!!
Just MHO...
-TM

[TeacherMan]

Originally Posted by magellan

BTW: Our universities are top notch and turn out well-educated students. We just have a hard time keeping them.

Dear Magellan: I used to have a lot of disagreement with you. However, as of late, I have found myself agreeing with more (but definitely not all)of your commentary/insights.
I wondered if you cared to expand upon this BTW?? I am interested to hear you further explain it and or provide a solution for it.

Regards,
-TM

BTW: I spent six of the BEST years of my life in GR and would move back IN A HEARTBEAT IF I could find a job. Unfortunately, I can not, and after seven years of teaching in this state, and losing money mid-year more often than any district should, I will be re-locating to another state with better opportunities ,but for my family!

[magellan]

Originally Posted by TeacherMan

Dear Magellan: I used to have a lot of disagreement with you. However, as of late, I have found myself agreeing with more (but definitely not all)of your commentary/insights.
I wondered if you cared to expand upon this BTW?? I am interested to hear you further explain it and or provide a solution for it.

Regards,
-TM

BTW: I spent six of the BEST years of my life in GR and would move back IN A HEARTBEAT IF I could find a job. Unfortunately, I can not, and after seven years of teaching in this state, and losing money mid-year more often than any district should, I will be re-locating to another state with better opportunities ,but for my family!

I know, finding teaching jobs ANYWHERE in Michigan is next to impossible. I have several family members who are recent education graduates who can't find teaching jobs. Even though West Michigan is not doing as badly as the rest of the State, schools are being very tight on expansions, laying off teachers and/or closing schools (GRPS). Plus the State's budget problems and lack of commitment (it seems) to public education, the results are starting to show.

But our colleges are still putting out top notch graduates. Our education graduates are highly coveted in other States, especially in the SE (so I've heard). MSU is ranked highly in many categories, especially in engineering. Ferris has one of the best Pharmacy programs in the country. Mich Tech puts out a ton of great engineering graduates. GVSU has lately been ranked in the "best universities in the Midwest" category. When I went to Western, it was CHOCKED full of people from Chicago who were actually paying double tuition (out of state) to go there, because it was leaps and bounds above many of Illinois' public universities (so they told me). And obviously UofM is one of the best schools in the country in many categories.

Problem is, they need jobs, lots more than Michigan has to offer. Michigan colleges probably graduate more than 150 - 200,000 students a year, yet Michigan jobs are in decline, and West Michigan is only adding several thousand a year. I just read that Chicago is the #1 destination for Michigan college grads. And if you visit neighborhoods like Lincoln Park, Bucktown, Wicker Park, River North or Wrigleyville, it's easy to see why. We've got nothing in Michigan like that (although, cost of living is lower here). We've let our urban areas rot to the core. College grads move to Chicago by the thousands with NO JOB, just to try and make a go of it and be part of the "extended college" scene. I know, many of my fellow grads did (and my brother).

As to the solution, I'll have to think some more before I type.

[TeacherMan]

Magellen:

Thanks for your response. I (again) agree with you. I think that my GVSU undergad degree in Education was TOP-NOTCH and I am ever grateful for it, feeling I received the best investment for my education dollar!!!

That being said, seven years ago I had to move ACROSS the state to acquire my first teaching job, because there was virtually nothing in the area of GR and vicinity. I have struggled and toiled in the farms and blur-collar country of SE MI for long enough. And I can not get out to another school in MI.

It is ironic that you mention Chicago. After a lot of research, interviewing, job fairs, etc. we had narrowed down our relocation choices to Houston and Chicago. While Houston is definitely better (in almost all respects) ON PAPER, we have chosen Chicago because of FAMILY, and will be relocating there in about a month.

All that said... I await your insightful solutions to help the great state of MI that seems to be dying a slow, painful death at the death-grip of the auto industry and unions. My family still lives here...and I will visit often...I have a vested interest!!

Cheers,
-TM

[magellan]

Originally Posted by TeacherMan

Magellen:

Thanks for your response. I (again) agree with you. I think that my GVSU undergad degree in Education was TOP-NOTCH and I am ever grateful for it, feeling I received the best investment for my education dollar!!!

That being said, seven years ago I had to move ACROSS the state to acquire my first teaching job, because there was virtually nothing in the area of GR and vicinity. I have struggled and toiled in the farms and blur-collar country of SE MI for long enough. And I can not get out to another school in MI.

It is ironic that you mention Chicago. After a lot of research, interviewing, job fairs, etc. we had narrowed down our relocation choices to Houston and Chicago. While Houston is definitely better (in almost all respects) ON PAPER, we have chosen Chicago because of FAMILY, and will be relocating there in about a month.

All that said... I await your insightful solutions to help the great state of MI that seems to be dying a slow, painful death at the death-grip of the auto industry and unions. My family still lives here...and I will visit often...I have a vested interest!!

Cheers,
-TM

Sorry for the late response TM. I've been running around like a chicken..you know the rest.

Anyway, not in any organized manner, but here are some of my observations of the country as a whole right now, and how Michigan might better "position" itself to be a world-class region again (yes WORLD).

1) Michigan's weather climate is tough, but could be a moot point

It doesn't appeal to a broad group of individuals. A lot of people, especially as they age, don't like cold weather, and many people like a lot of sun (even though Americans spend 99.95% of their time indoors under U/V lights and in A/C nowadays). Go figure. If you look at the most "progressive" cities and regions in North America, they are also in typically cold and gloomy climates (Portland, Northern California (colder than Southern CA), Seattle, Vancouver, Toronto, Minneapolis, Madison WI, Montreal, Boston, NYC). The only warm-weather progressive city I can think of is Austin TX.

Why doesn't Michigan move toward being more progressive? Not just at the executive, legislative or economic development level, but at the citizen level? For example, Minnesota and Wisconsin are leaps and bounds ahead of us in Wind Farm technology, with Minnesota providing 615 MW of power to their grid. Not through a lot of "incentives" or governor task forces, but because they have a culture in Minnesota of being "scientific and innovative minded". This culture DRAWS people to that State who might not otherwise move to a Northern State. We have a huge asset that needs a lot of work, the Great Lakes, that could provide a hotbed for new conservation and alternative energy entrepreneurs. But will those entrepreneurs partaking in those endeavors be "welcomed" in Michigan, and not just by the Governor? Yes, Michigan votes Democratic a lot, but is it really "progressive"? UAW liberal maybe, but that's about it. I can think of two really progressive areas in Michigan: Ann Arbor and Saugatuck.

Great thing about progressives is they LOVE to take the old and worn-out and make it new again, at the grassroots level. Conservatives generally find the path of least resistance. What better way to fix up Michigan than block by block, neighborhood by neighborhood.

2) Housing Opportunity/Affordability in Michigan

I've been looking at statistics such as the recently created "Housing Opportunity Index". It measures the difference between the average housing/rental costs of an area vs. the average household income. Almost like a PE ratio for housing. In more than 1/2 the country now, 50% of households CANNOT afford a home. and it's getting worse, not better.

How does Michigan rate? Extremely well in this situation. Especially because of our lackluster economy, our housing is unbelievably affordable.

Housing Opportunity Index: 1st Quarter 2006 by Affordability Rank

Especially compared to the East and West Coasts (where a lot of progressives reside). The great thing is that we're not like most affordable housing States, with not much else to offer. We are an affordable housing State with some absolutely beautiful natural resources, recreational amenities, thousands of acres of protected forests, more coastline than any other State in the country, etc. etc. Things that I'm sure a lot of progressives would love to explore and enjoy (and do now). Think about it, if you live in Boston, NYC or New Jersey, where do you go to "get away and be with nature"? You probably have to drive hours and hours. Here in Michigan, at least most of the Michigan I know, you can be at a lake or in a campground within minutes. The only time you really fight traffic is heading Up North on the weekends, but even then it's not like "Atlanta traffic" bad.

But the problem again is that many New Yorkers, San Franciscans, Portlanders, Seattleites or Bostonians won't move to Michigan if they feel there are overly conservative undertones prevalent everywhere. Especially to the smaller cities like Grand Rapids, Lansing, Saginaw, etc..

We may also be able to keep some of those 150 - 200,000 college grads around a bit longer (even 15 - 20% more would be nice).

3) Adding on to that thought, Michigan needs to stop working so much on attracting large companies to the State. For one, large companies today means large numbers of service jobs, which means a lot less economic multiplier effect (you have to attract 5x as many service companies to create the same number of spinoff jobs as an automotive plant for instance). Large companies also want HUGE tax breaks, like the $200 Million tax breaks North Carolina gave to Google just to build a giant air-conditioned warehouse (with a handful of workers).

Instead, create an environment that is conducive to small entrepreneurs: ie fix up and reinvest in our urban areas, give incentives to more incubator spaces, HAVE A CULTURE OF INNOVATION AND OPENNESS TO NEW IDEAS, encourage our Michigan philanthropists to fund more capital venture, get creative, stop thinking that just because something was tried once and failed does not mean it should never be tried again, start thinking regionally instead of constantly fighting suburb vs. city, trim down the sheer number of governmental units in this state (by annexation if necessary). For a State that claims it likes small government, why does Michigan have more people in government positions in more jurisdictions than any other? And why is it that Grand Rapids, a city a fraction of the size of Detroit, have more dollars invested and more jobs created in Renaissance Zones than any other area in the State?

4) Create a flat across the board property tax rate. This will force municipalities to work together and do a lot more joint ventures on water/sewer and infrastructure projects. Plus, it will make school funding more equitable. It might also slow down Michigan's sprawl problem (if you're like L Brooks Patterson and think there's no such thing, you're smoking some good s**t). Michigan now has more percentage of people living in "rural/suburban" areas than any other State, and we wonder why we can't maintain the infrastructure. Plus, as discussed in this very thread, our property tax system IS like rocket science, way too complicated. It's just an idea I had, and someone might correct me big time on that one.

5) Stop looking at West Michigan as the pestering little brother looking for a handout, but as the model child in the family. The Grand Rapids CSA Metro area is now up to 1.3 Million people, and is growing (5.5% since 2000). When was the last time any Southeastern Michigan business or civic leaders paid a visit to see what is going right here? I can't think of one. And yet, city and state leaders from around the country have been coming to Grand Rapids lately to see what is going right. Transit, sustainability and Great Lakes conservation summits have been held in Grand Rapids over the past couple of years (one going on right now: The Great Lakes and St. Lawrence Cities Initiative Annual Meeting.) And the NY Times has written three glowing articles about Grand Rapids in just the past 6 months. It boggles the mind that I don't think I've read one glowing article about West Michigan in the FREEP or DetNews.

A lot of this is not going to create jobs tomorrow or even by next year, but since most people assume Michigan won't be out of a slump for 10 years, might as well set a proper course now. Warning though: you might then have neighbors who are gay and/or of another ethnicity.

BTW: This might shock you, but I'm a registered Republican and have voted straight GOP ticket about 60 - 70% of elections. But I just see the writing on the wall that slash and burn, every man for himself, Ayn Rand Libertarianism is killing our beautiful State.

Ouch! Longest.....post.....ever.....

[funmudder]

Just got our summer property tax bill, and putting it with the winter taxes, I simply can no longer afford to live here. They must think my home is made of gold to be valued so high. I'm literally paying one weeks paycheck every month JUST on taxes.

We got home last week from a vacation only to find gas prices at .25$ above every state we drove through over the last 2 weeks. Farmer Jack is now Kroger, and Kroger has always been more expensive, it's why we never shop there unless it's an emergency. Now it's our only option outside of Meijers.

We looked at all of our numbers, and honestly can no longer afford to stay here and try to raise our family. Cost of living with 5 children is high enough as it is, trying to raise them on the crumbs leftover from state and local gouging is next to impossible. We have to leave with all the other businesses before more of our savings are spent on the achilles heel cutting taxes.

*sigh*

5 bedroom, 2 full bath home in Garden City for sale.

[TeacherMan]

WOW!!! What an in-depth analysis and suggestion (Magellan) for improving the state of MI. Surprisingly, I agree with major portions of it. My ideas would be a bit simpler...
1.) Simply the property tax structure to more similarly resemble the income tax structure. (E.G. "Flat-rate" with minimal exemptions and "write-offs")
2.) Increase sales tax, maybe to 7%, and put a minimal tax (1-2%) on food.
3.) Make the lottery ACTUALLY go for schools. As I understand it (without a link for accuracy), the state gov't budgets a certain amount for schools, then whatever the lottery generates they subtract from that budget and then put it back into the "general fund". (And we know how well this is managed ) [I may be biased on the last suggestion because of my vocation and previously working in a district that suffered from a major lack of adequate funding...]

Anyway, those are my thoughts (or MHO). I think yours are good enough and thought/discussion provoking enough that you should put a link to them on the thread that was started about how to improve MI!!

Keep enjoying GR!!! I know I will when I visit the many family and friends that I have there (BTW is the Stockbridge Pub still in existence??)!!!

Until later...

Cheers,
-TM

[magellan]

Originally Posted by TeacherMan

WOW!!! What an in-depth analysis and suggestion (Magellan) for improving the state of MI. Surprisingly, I agree with major portions of it. My ideas would be a bit simpler...
1.) Simply the property tax structure to more similarly resemble the income tax structure. (E.G. "Flat-rate" with minimal exemptions and "write-offs")
2.) Increase sales tax, maybe to 7%, and put a minimal tax (1-2%) on food.
3.) Make the lottery ACTUALLY go for schools. As I understand it (without a link for accuracy), the state gov't budgets a certain amount for schools, then whatever the lottery generates they subtract from that budget and then put it back into the "general fund". (And we know how well this is managed ) [I may be biased on the last suggestion because of my vocation and previously working in a district that suffered from a major lack of adequate funding...]

Anyway, those are my thoughts (or MHO). I think yours are good enough and thought/discussion provoking enough that you should put a link to them on the thread that was started about how to improve MI!!

Keep enjoying GR!!! I know I will when I visit the many family and friends that I have there (BTW is the Stockbridge Pub still in existence??)!!!

Until later...

Cheers,
-TM

Thanks,

Yes, as far as I know Stockbridge Pub is still open. We live on the Northeast side so we don't get to the West side that much anymore.

Come back and visit often!

[JimmyInGreatLakes]

Keep in mind that our State Tax Commission pulled a fast one back in November ('06) when they set the property tax multiplier based on the 9-month (data so far at that point) 2006 CPI and their extrapolation of it to 12 months. Their calculations led to a 3.7% increase in our 2007 assessments. When January rolled around and the December CPI came out, the entire year CPI was actually only 2.5% (Oct/Nov/Dec CPI was negative). They of course didn't correct it and we now pay 1.2% more property taxes than we should according to the language in Proposal A ("previous year's CPI", not "what the State Tax Commission thinks it might be after 9-month's data"). This inequity will be compounded upon forever now.

[lillibette]

Originally Posted by Kingsnkali

Us younger retirees will be bringing in lots of money to small communities. We can't do that in Michigan. I can't afford the property taxes. They are double what I am paying in California for the same or less house.

Okay, but how much did that "same or less house" cost you? You can't tell me that the cost of a 3 brm, 2b house is going to cost you the same or less in California!

I have family in CA that paid $350,000 for a 2 brm 1b home and thought they got a great deal.

BTW, Livingston county taxes are great... rural areas are lower than urban areas here in Michigan