Race relations in Michigan (Detroit, Grand Rapids: relocating, real estate, housing)

[tuebor]

I've seen some comments regarding racism in Michigan that seem very exaggerated to me. I've lived in Ann Arbor, East Lansing, Kalamazoo, Houghton, Hancock, Negaunee, and Grand Rapids. I've also lived in Chicago. the D.C. area, and a suburb New Haven, CT, and I'd say race relations are worse in those places than in any of the places in Michigan that I've lived in. But I infer from some of the comments on this forum that Michigan is kind of a mixed bag when it comes to race relations. What do you all think?

I suggest we approach this topic by talking about our own experiences and observations of places we have spent time in, and avoid sweeping generalizations about the whole state or rumors we've heard about places we're not familiar with.

Comments on these three subtopics would be especially germane:
(1) Overt discrimination--are people denied jobs or harassed by law enforcement on the basis of race?
(2) Social cohesion--do people from different races socialize? Do they get along but not mingle? Is there hostility or tension between them?
(3) Residential segregation--can people live wherever they want? Are neighborhoods mixed?

(And if someone could tell me why there are so many Confederate flags displayed in the UP, I'd appreciate it. What the heck is THAT all about?!)

[RedWingsFan]

You didn't mention you ever lived in the Detroit area. That's where the biggest heated area of race relations is. If you went there you would get a better understanding of the situation. For the most part the city of Detroit is 80 percent black and the suburbs are 80 percent or more white. It's the most segregated major metropolitan area in the country.

Why did this happen? You would have to know and understand the history of the area. It used to be white people (my family going way back for generations). Then more and more blacks moved to the area. As the black population increased there was white flight. All the white people headed for the suburbs. To this day I hear stories from my grandparents about how the city at one time was really nice and they destroyed it and made it a dangerous place, forcing people to have to move away to the suburbs.

This caused a huge racial tension between the city and suburbs that's been there ever since and will always be there.

[Activ8a]

I've lived in Kalamazoo for over ten years, and I have lots and lots of family and friends in and around Detroit who I visit regularly.

Detroit is literally the most segregated city in America, even more than cities in the South. Many Southerners and other poor people came to Detroit in the early 1900s to get jobs in the automobile industry, etc. Because of Detroit's unique and rich history with the auto industry, it tended to get a much higher percentage of poor, working-class factory workers, more than other cities. As a result, there was more competition between different races. There's also the fact that A LOT of Black people settled in Detroit; it was basically the northernmost city in the Midwest, so lots of Black people tried to go there, both for the new auto industry and because they felt that the farther north they went, the safer they were.

There have been many different clashes and riots, from as early as the 1920s and 1940s, and many of these were actually started by WHITE people....angrily protesting, tipping over cars, hitting Black people with baseball bats, shooting people, etc. There has been chaos off and on over the years, as well as racially-insensitive decisions (such as tearing apart a famous Black neighborhood in Detroit to build I-75 in its place).

Detroit residents tended to be poor, living in a densely populated city, like crabs in a bucket. Then, of course, with Dr. King's death and a couple other events, some frustrated Black people protested in the streets, spoke out, and occasionally broke windows, set fires, or stole food from grocery stores. (Keep in mind that more-than-a-few White people had already done several similar things in Detroit's past.) White business owners and White police then often over-reacted by murdering looters, bringing in tanks, and even killing civilians. Shortly after, around the 1970s, the auto industry suffered, and Detroit became even poorer than ever--both Whites and Blacks. Many who could (mostly White people) fled to the suburbs, and many started policies that keep out almost all Black people, even to this day.

Troy is the most homogeneously White (about 99%) city of its size in the U.S. today, which cannot be coincidence since it is within miles of the most homogeneously BLACK city of its size in the U.S.! Sterling Heights, Warren, and the Grosse Pointes are also overwhelmingly White.

Not only the poverty, but especially the increased segregation over the years, has only increased racism and distrust--both by those subjected to impoverished conditions day after day, and those who are paranoid of going anywhere near the ruined city they left behind.

Oh, there will be plenty of White people who get excited about "their" Black entertainers, such as the Detroit Pistons or Motown musicians. However, racism seems alive and well in Detroit, with plenty of White people paranoid to "cross the line" (8 Mile), which they claim will bring them into a "whole other world."

[RedWingsFan]

Activ8a- great post. You are very correct!

Why does much of the racism still exist? Because as the blacks moved into Detroit the whites felt they had to fee to safer suburban areas to get away from them. With so many of them coming in the crime soared (and still soars today) and the neighborhoods starting going downhill. Even today (just last week) my grandparents were talking about how they once lived in a great neighborhood in Detroit, upper middle class and when the blacks started moving there for jobs it went downhill fast. They moved to Troy (where all my family still is today). The last time they went back to see that neigbhorhood half the houses were burned down and it's a mess.

The irony is that the blacks moved to Detroit and took it over because of jobs and now today there aren't any for them and it makes for a huge struggling mess.

[callmemle]

I live in mid-MI, but have lived in numerous cities around the country. I was born in Flint, MI - home of the UAW (union). I would have to say that Genesee county (FLint area) has a lot of racial tension, like Detroit. They have both been rated very high in crime stats nation wide. This is not a simple issue to dissect, but I have noticed several factors that contribute to this. First of all, I think that Flint and Detroit are leaders in automotive assembly plants. in response, the unions in the Flint area have an unbelieveable amount of power, and have created an attitude of "big business owes me/ I deserve high pay for low education and a so-so work ethic". I equivicate this attitude with the attitude of the welfare class - the government owes them, too. Unfortunately, the stats show that in our county most of the welfare $ goes to the blacks. The welfare class feel victimized and it's easier to not work. It's a sad, crazy cycle that you learn in the crib and pass on to the next generation. Why take care of a house that you don't own or didn't have to work to pay for? These inner city inhabitants breed selfishness, lack of respect for others and themselves, feel taken advantage of, etc. so they treat others and their surroundings in reaction to those attitudes. What is the answer? Government accountablility? More programs? Do they really work? I think that whites see the futility in fighting an entire culture and just get out.

Second, when you have blue collar workers (auto industry) making absurd amounts of money and benefits, with no education, you get two things. First, there is a working class that in general is used to barely making it. Easy come, easy go. You get paid well, spend well, and feel that you deserve more - the I deserve more attitude. Second, why get an education when you can graduate HS, or not, and get a job that pays as much as a college grad? Communities that have a high percentage of drop outs and few college grads do not make for a very progressive, cultural areas. It is depressing, if you want to have access to culture and higher thinking. Well, things are going down hill for the auto industry and fast. The attitudes still prevail, though. So now we have city/countygovernments that are steeped in this everyone-owes-me attitude, high unemployment rates with people who can only work in assembly plants, auto plants moving to non-union states, high percentage of welfare class, and little hope of a turn around for years.

Don't get me wrong, I understand there can be a need for social services. However, I don't feel that it should be a lifestyle. Unfortunately, MI has somewhat empowered our lower class to live this way. At one point, we had people moving here just because they could recieve such great benefits. MI has made stronger legislation in the last decade to diminish this leniency, but the effects are long lasting.

Other areas in MI are very different, in my observations. I am sure that most states are similar - things depend on the city/county. The west side of the state seems to be much less racially tense.

[tuebor]

I grew up in Ann Arbor in the 70s and 80s. Race relations in AA were much better than what the above posters described in Flint and Detroit, but not perfect.

AA is a self-consciously progressive town. AA elected its first black mayor while I was in school. MLKjr day was a school holiday in AA several years before it became a national holiday. We got a half-day off then (now it's a full day off). We would see MLKjr's "I have a dream" speech and watch old news footage of little old black ladies getting hit with firehoses and attacked by police dogs during the civil rights protests. I think this indoctrination did help make kids aware of racial issues and more likely to examine their own attitudes.

Mixed marriages seem to be more common in AA than elsewhere. My two best friends in 6th grade were of mixed race (I'm white, btw). I grew up in neighborhoods that were predominantly but not exclusively white. However, there were a few neighborhoods that were all black, and some of the elementary schools were disproportionately black or white. Other groups were a very small part of the population.

Class seemed to be a more important social fault line than race. The children of college-educated parents were more likely to associate with other children of college-educated parents, regardless of race, and the black families who lived in mixed neighborhoods tended to be professionals. But it was complicated. By high school, one could see a certain amount of self-segregation in the lunchroom. Also, those lower down on the social ladder seemed more likely to have negative attitudes about people from other races. For some reason, some of people who were most openly hostile to people of other races happened to be black girls.

Sports and drugs seemed to break down barriers. Athletics brought people of different races together, and the stoners were willing to get baked with anyone who would share weed with them.

I remember a couple of white kids who spoke "Black English". They weren't wannabes or posers; this was really the language they were most comfortable with. One of them went on to become a lawyer.

I heard about, but did not witness, conflicts between white teens from Ypsi and black teens from AA in a large park that bordered both towns. Incidentally, in addition to the large numbers of blacks who came north to work in southeast Michigan's industries, many poor southern whites also came north for the same reason. We used to call Ypsilanti "Ypsitucky" because of all the people from Kentucky who settled there (I was told many came up during WWII to work at war industries such as the aircraft factory in Willow Run).

[michiganirish]

After reading the post by ACTIV8a I just had to put my two cents in.

While it's true that racial tensions have run high in Detroit for over 80 years ACTIV8a seems to be willing to place the blame for Detriot's decline on the white population. It is true that many black Detroiters suffered from red lining in the real estate market for many years, (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ossian_Sweet ) that in the 20's resulted in violence. However as to "tearing apart a famous Black neighborhood in Detroit to build I-75 in its place" that ACTIV8a mentioned; I believe that area was called Paradise Valley and it was far from a "nice" place to live. In fact a former NCAAP president, Gloster Current (who also lived in Paradise Valley) said that it was "a mixture of everything imaginable-including overcrowding, delinquency, and disease".

As a former resident of a Downriver suburb of Detroit, and extednded family living there, I spent a lot of time in the city as a teenager in the late 60's and 70's, when bus service was still available and there were actually stores and events other than sptorts to go to in the city I can tell you that both black and white residents were to blame for what happened to Detroit.

The largest part of the "white flight" happened after the 1968 riots, in which large residential areas and businesses were burned and looted. Oddly enough the neighborhoods that hit the hardest were mixed race neighborhoods. My Aunt lived on Washbash and 14th street when the riots began, we were all over her house for a birthday party. Anyways....... That began the white flight. And who could rightly blame them? They were frightened. (My Aunt remained on 14th however until her death in 1999)

Those whites that stayed in Detroit began to leave after Coleman Young became mayor. The man was an angry racist himself. He fueled the fire between the so called white suburbs and the City of Detroit. In fact it was Coleman Young that drew the dividing line down 8 mile. He made it very clear to the black residents of Detroit that it was the fault of the white race that Detroit was suffering. At any rate the cities decline really took off with his administration, that lasted 20 years or more. He was largely responsible for enableing the poorer black population to remain of welfare, his police department was corrupt etc.. Most of the middle class black population were moving to subdivisions like Rosedale Park, Indian Village or to the city of Southfield. What was left was drug dealers, car thieves and welfare cheats.

Detroit at one time was a world class city, it now struggles trying to keep it's schools from being taken over by the State of Michigan.

Detroit's crime index is over 925, the national average is a bit over 325. Over 40% if the population doesn't have a high school dimpolma, nearly have of the people (over 15) have never been married but have children, over 14% are unemployed, over 20% live below the poverty line and over 48% of that is single women with small children. These figures are not the result of the white flight that occured nearly 40 years ago. They are the result of people not be accountable for their own actions.

Detroit has been in the possesion of black Americans for quite awhile, they had the opportunity to change the outcome of what has become Detroit today. Instead they chose to point fingers and wallow in the misery they created for themselves.

To be sure there are efforts to turn the city around, the New Center Area is coming along. Cork Town, Detroit's oldest neighborhood is seeing somewhat of a rebirth, the Boston-Edison District is coming back to it's former glory, and the Campus Martius Park in Detroit is reviving itself to resemble what it was back in 1800's. I hope the efforts continue. Unfortunately, you need more than a park, to bring a city back to law and order and a place people want to live.

[lavendersunrise]

I'm going to preface this by saying this is my own personal opinion and not based on any research whatsoever.

I was born and raised in Roseville (NE suburb of Detroit). Over the past decade I have watched the city crumble in regards to crime, facade, and education. Why? Well, I really don't know WHY that is, however, Roseville has the lowest income of Macomb County (or so it is rumored). The percentage of blacks, whites, and other races in Roseville has changed a considerable amount in the last ten years. Perhaps that is only a superficial change that has nothing to do with the state of the city, however, from the perspective of a white family, that has EVERYTHING to do with it.

Roseville schools used to be decent until they opened them up to Wayne county.

Race is a huge problem and it's only going to get worse as bad things happen when the percentages change.

[NMZC]

I've lived in various areas of MI over the years; Detroit (East, West,and Southwest), Downriver (Taylor, Southgate, Dearborn, and Wyandotte),Southfield, Novi, Livonia, and Farmington Hills. I've experienced both overt and covert racism in each area.

I've noticed that racism tends to be more overt in the downriver areas than anywhere else; people downriver don't tend to keep their feelings about ethnic minorities a secret. In places such as Novi, Farmington Hills, and Livonia racism is much more covert but practiced frequently; be it in housing, education, or employment. Most of the racism I've seen in Detroit and Southfield is in-house racism.

I've seen the "white flight" referenced above first-hand. I first noticed it in Southfield about 13 years ago. As more ethinic minorities moved in, more caucasian people moved out. I'm currently seeing the same thing in Novi. The sentiment that minorities, particularly black people, moving into the neighborhood necessitates the property values going down and crime increasing is alive in well in MI.

Unfortunately certain area of MI are still chuck full of people who base their theories about other cultures solely on what their parents/grandparents tell them which is usually nothing more than ignorant racist rhetoric passed down through generations. The assertion that "the blacks" moving into Detroit is the sole cause of its demise is absolutely false and based on inadequate observations and lack of knowledge about the effects of capitalism on a local level. Most people making such assertions have no clue about "urban sprawl" and its effects on the remaining population in a city.

[reconmark]

I've read the comments of obviously white people as to how black people are the sole or majority reason as to the state of Detroit; and as usual none of the blame lies in their hands. Let me state the reason for the state of Detroit from a black persons point of view. First of all, the riots in Detroit ALWAYS started with blacks being attacked by whites even prior to the 1967 riots. The usual reason was that a black man had "raped" a white woman or a n****r had gotten uppiditty and talked back to a white man.
Please take a look at these articles for more information on Detroit's race relations from the start of black migration into the area http://info.detnews.com/history/stor...ategory=events
I read one poster stating that black bottom aka paradise alley wasen't a nice place to live and that poster was partly correct. It was nice in that blacks were not routinely subjected to disrespect and violence because they were in an area predominately black as residents and business owners. It wasen't nice due to overcrowding and the related problems of descrimination.
What the white posters fail to mention is that blacks had NO CHOICE but to live in black bottom because of white's use of RESTRICTED COVENENTS that precluded even the most educated and financially abled blacks to live anywhere but black bottom, adding insult to injury the White banks and city leaders strictly used REDLINING to refuse blacks the opportunity to live anywhere else in the city.
Detroit was beautiful because most everyone had a nice paying factory job and those that didn't made a nice living selling goods to people who had the purchasing power, and ability to keep homes in good shape. The city could also afford through it's tax base to maintain a high level of public workers to keep the city clean and maintained. As blacks started to move into white neighborhoods it was only because factory jobs were already starting to decline and whites were moving to the suburbs where the jobs were going but again blacks could not get home loans to also move into those areas where the jobs were relocating and were stuckin a city with a declining tax base and middle class factory jobs falling by the wayside. So, it dosen't take too much common sense to connect certain dots; that being a lower tax base means streets and parks don't get maitained as well as they used to when Whites ran the city, houses didn't get the upkeep and maitenance they needed because the job that qualified you for the home was no longer there, that job was now in the suburbs where you couldn't move to in order to get the job. White forget that routinely blacks could work in smaller shops for 20 years still be sweeping and mopping the floor with no chance of ever being given a promotion to asst mgr or mgr, Whites would go crazey if a black person was ever put in charge of anything. Think I'm exaggerating? just read the article I posted the web address to. June 1943 25,000 whites go on strike because 3 black people got a promotion to supervisor. What the article dosen,t tell you is that there were a total of 6 promotion, 3 to whites and 3 to blacks. Again whites could not tolerate the thought that any black could rise above them in society and a strike ensued; at this same plant the white females were so distressed that they had to share the restrooms with other black women that they tried to start a strike to get the restrooms segregated.
Another poster stated that Coleman Young was a racist and made 8 mile a dividing line, no this was not a fact and I wish some Whites would read rather than restating what they heard from someone else. Please read his autobiography for clarification on his 8 mile remark, what he declared was that all CRIMINALS not whites hit 8 mile road and get out of town. Here's the link for more clarification http://www.metrotimes.com/archives/young/myth.html
Whites will NOT say that there has ALWAYS been a hatred for blacks in this country but they overlook one reason for the bitter hostlity in se Mi is that at the same time blacks were migrating from the south to escape jim crow laws and lynchings and get jobs in the factories, some of those same whites were also migrating up north for the same jobs and their hatred and prejudice didn't stop at the mason-dixie line. It came right up here and made itself at home. Now how many whites who lovingly recall the good old days or their own families histories ever get on the internet and lovingly tell how old gramps used to drive around with family and friends beating and bashing in N****r heads or burning down the house that the N****r has moved in thinking he is just as good as white people.
The reason in my opinion for that state of race affairs in SE michigan is that whites have this historical amnesia as to their instigation and role in the mistreatment of blacks and that the inequalities even today have nothing to do with their generational and institutional mistreatment of blacks. I could go on and on but I'm sure you get my point.
Will I say that all our problems stem from racism, of course not but untill everyone comes to the table with real honesty and not these lies se Mi is always going to have this problem.
Yes,I am routinely pulled over in all the Grosse Pointes and Livonia and Novi among other areas and it always tickles me that once they discover that I'm a police officer and the usual BS about rolling stops and white to the rear isn't going to work they let me go with an apology, I think to myself that if it were not for my badge they would have ticketed me just to let me know I was not welcome to even drive through their community. Please excuse my mistakes, I'm not much of a typist.