[pbehson]

I know that I am beating a dead horse here, but I can understand how great Michigan must have been (employment wise) at one time. I also see how it must have been to live there b/c my years in Lake Placid NY were the best years of my life. Beautiful lakes, wilderness, friendly people and thriving communities.

It just seems that everyone is so afraid of change, expecially when it pertains to them. The teacher comment might not have come off right. What I meant was that working in a right to work environment without union benefits and protection isn't necessarily a bad thing. I have teacher and public service friends in NY and PA and they generally make more money than we might. But it just seems, and I may be wrong, that all of those layers of "protection" by the government really can haunt you in the way that most of the northern states (trust me the upstate NY economy is very bad too) are experiencing. I would LOVE to live in NY, and if I got a job there I would probably be wealthy and protected for life. Good for me but bad for the state.

Oh well, I wish the best to all in your great state and hope that this bailout of the auto industry motivates change on their part and sets an example for other industries.

[Bhaalspawn]

Originally Posted by upandrunning

Megellan you are a "do you believe me or what you hear and read in the new papers, TV, and MI.gov web site. When all is against you, in my book you loose. Sorry charlie

Could you please elaborate on this? What exactly are you referring to? What is it that Magellan is asking people to believe? (I couldn't figure out the context of your response.)

[MittenDweller82]

Originally Posted by pbehson

I know that I am beating a dead horse here, but I can understand how great Michigan must have been (employment wise) at one time. I also see how it must have been to live there b/c my years in Lake Placid NY were the best years of my life. Beautiful lakes, wilderness, friendly people and thriving communities.

It just seems that everyone is so afraid of change, expecially when it pertains to them. The teacher comment might not have come off right. What I meant was that working in a right to work environment without union benefits and protection isn't necessarily a bad thing. I have teacher and public service friends in NY and PA and they generally make more money than we might. But it just seems, and I may be wrong, that all of those layers of "protection" by the government really can haunt you in the way that most of the northern states (trust me the upstate NY economy is very bad too) are experiencing. I would LOVE to live in NY, and if I got a job there I would probably be wealthy and protected for life. Good for me but bad for the state.

Oh well, I wish the best to all in your great state and hope that this bailout of the auto industry motivates change on their part and sets an example for other industries.

I'm very excited to see a post that has this viewpoint..I spent the latter half of my college career researching this question. Your statement "everyone is afraid of change" is accurate in some instances, and in others it isn't. What is happening in Michigan is a generational battle, one that wants to break away from Michigan's past of physical labor, and the view of "blue collar workers". On the other end of the fence, you have progressive professional young individuals who (although most leave the state), are the future of Michigan, and are one of the transitional forces behind the erosion of death sentences such as unionized labor which is so deeply entrenched in Michigan history, it is in the "fabric" of every community. Most everyone can name someone who in some form, performs physical labor, whether in factories tied to the auto industry, or other labor based positions. At another point, you have a class battle occurring, which was evident when big three exec's went to Washington to testify. Union leaders called it a "double standard" as a basis of argument to refute the "white collar, blue collar battle", as policy makers termed it "financial responsibility" for American taxpayers. The generation now exiting college wants amenities that Michigan fails to provide, intellectual work, urban amenities, financial stability, and a culture of like minded people. While on the other spectrum, retirees and those nearing the end of their careers enjoy the preservation of old ways, rural life, and quietness of living outside of urban areas. The older majority makes policy in Michigan, they outweigh the younger generation in voting lines, and voice their opinions more often, the younger adults simply leave and inhabit places such as Chicago, Boston, LA and the like where they can thrive.

Spending time outside of Michigan, and traveling throughout the US I found that people of a rather solid opinion of Michigan, on one hand the physical beauty of the state is always brought up, but then, the backwards "ways" of the state are introduced, often outweighing the physical beauty.

This summer, I was on a ferry coming back from South Manitou Island, when I struck up this same conversation with a older couple from Chicago. They had done well for themselves, living in downtown Chicago they once lived near Detroit, their view was very negative of Michigan's "backwards ways" but came to see the beauty of places such as South Manitou Island .Their children were sent to UM, and moved back home directly after graduation. Many who live in Michigan fail to realize the power of opinion, and how rampant and far away negative views of this state live. Yes I've come to the end of my long rant, although there is no "easy" answer for the question of change in Michigan. A similar scenario would be to look at the south, when furniture manufacturing left the area, these states spent transitional years introducing industry in finance and insurance. In my opinion, there are many people in Michigan who do not want change, in a way it is a time warp here, a place where manufacturing, rustic communities, and old ideologies still thrive. While on the other hand, the tides of free markets and globalization threatens the UAW's safe haven, eventually I believe Michigan will have to become a intellectual center, or face a dire future.

[upandrunning]

My point was that Magellan always puts his anecdotal mouthing’s above sources like CNN. He said that they did not live in the area and so they did not really know what the real story was, and alluded that he did. I hope this clears it up for you. Sociologist, I agree with you, but I am not sure that the state [Michigan] or any state so deeply entrenched in industry can remake itself in such a drastic fashion. Even places that have built themselves on such commerce are having a hard time although not as hard as the auto industry. It would be a hard and long task to remake Michigan in good times not to mention hard times. We see today after the bail out that the market is not responding to well. The American people are against it, and it most certainly will do nothing but delay the inevitable. Toyota who builds not only great dependable cars, but the high MPG cars that people want. Today they posted profit projections for the year that are the worst in 70 years. This is not because they are not building what people want, people are not buying because they do not have the money or are already in debt too deep to buy a new car. The problem is that all the so called fixes that the gov. is throwing out is nothing more than an accelerated plan of the same thing that got us here in the first place. I fear the only way out is to take the pain and let the people who over bought go under and let the system reset as it were.

[magellan]

Originally Posted by upandrunning

My point was that Magellan always puts his anecdotal mouthing’s above sources like CNN. He said that they did not live in the area and so they did not really know what the real story was, and alluded that he did. I hope this clears it up for you. Sociologist, I agree with you, but I am not sure that the state [Michigan] or any state so deeply entrenched in industry can remake itself in such a drastic fashion. Even places that have built themselves on such commerce are having a hard time although not as hard as the auto industry. It would be a hard and long task to remake Michigan in good times not to mention hard times. We see today after the bail out that the market is not responding to well. The American people are against it, and it most certainly will do nothing but delay the inevitable. Toyota who builds not only great dependable cars, but the high MPG cars that people want. Today they posted profit projections for the year that are the worst in 70 years. This is not because they are not building what people want, people are not buying because they do not have the money or are already in debt too deep to buy a new car. The problem is that all the so called fixes that the gov. is throwing out is nothing more than an accelerated plan of the same thing that got us here in the first place. I fear the only way out is to take the pain and let the people who over bought go under and let the system reset as it were.

You're right upandrunning. I'll now plug into CNN for all of my Michigan insider news. Thanks for the tip.

Speaking of that, I'll leave this thread now for greener pastures.

[walls]

sociologist, please explain "backward ways" and "intellectual center" Your Chicago example...do they mean backward a la Blago,Rezko, Mayor Daly and William Ayres? No city business with civil war companys that did major commerce with the south? That kind of intellectual progress??? Is THAT what you mean. Intellectual centers a la Calif that are so far in the hole they have to look down to see up. Intellectual centers as in MSU and UoM, who are supported by us unintellectuals...as well as the entire leftist Gov't that sucks the life blood out of this state? This state needs nothing other than free market principles and unobtrusive gov't. Those are proven examples.

[MittenDweller82]

Originally Posted by walls

sociologist, please explain "backward ways" and "intellectual center" Your Chicago example...do they mean backward a la Blago,Rezko, Mayor Daly and William Ayres? No city business with civil war companys that did major commerce with the south? That kind of intellectual progress??? Is THAT what you mean. Intellectual centers a la Calif that are so far in the hole they have to look down to see up. Intellectual centers as in MSU and UoM, who are supported by us unintellectuals...as well as the entire leftist Gov't that sucks the life blood out of this state? This state needs nothing other than free market principles and unobtrusive gov't. Those are proven examples.

I'm sorry you misunderstood my post, I was referring to the high concentration of educated people in the Chicago, Boston, and LA metro areas, in statistical terms this is what professionals term a "intellectual center". Your quote regarding U of M and MSU is dead wrong however, with UM being one of the wealthiest universities in the country due to endowments from alumni (obviously an alumni can't be non-educated). (Remember, they are purchasing the old Pfizer campus with these funds) MSU also boasts high gift giving from alums. As far as the micro-politics (based on a city level) of Ann Arbor, I wouldn't go as far as to blame any sort of belief system (ideologies) on current affairs. Radical free markets and globalization are the very reasons that manufacturing has met its demise here in Michigan. Do you have scholarly data (formal reports, gov statistics) regarding the necessity of free markets and absence of government in Michigan, how did you come to that conclusion?

[walls]

are you saying our tax dollars are not going to these universities? ..anyway here is just a beginning


How to Save Detroit

What a sad spectacle! There on the witness stands in Congress sat the CEOs of GM, Ford and Chrysler, soliciting taxpayer money to avert their ownbankruptcy. Their pleadings spoke of urgency for their firms and, if unheeded, catastrophe for the U.S. economy.
But are Detroit's automakers worthy of an expropriation of general taxpayer dollars to finance their operations? The arguments they presented werelargely distractions from automotive reality. Some impartial observers viewed the CEOs' testimonies as once-proud firms, noted for innovation and enviable business spirit, now transformed into "political entrepreneurship."
For more than half a century, Detroit's automakers have taken their eyes off the ball. During the late 1940s and early 1950s, when unions began picking off automakers individually as "strike targets" in a "pattern-bargaining" strategy aimed at leapfrogging compensation packages, Detroit's executives and directors failed to effectively challenge the asymmetry of the 1935 Wagner Act and other perverse legislation that tilted power toward organized labor.
During the 1960s and 1970s, when Japan's resurgent economy spawned resourceful, dedicated automotive competitors, Detroit's automakers largely ignored the technology that would have endowed their own products and services with a reputation for "better-faster-cheaper (more affordable)."
In the 1980s and 1990s, when the self-anointed "environmentalist" and "politically correct" movements were in their ascendancy, Detroit's automakers, despite a persistent bleed of market share to foreign automakers, claimed political virtue as "corporate citizens" by appointing many directors to their boards who offered community awareness but few engineering, financing or executive skills.
Even in the current decade, we have seen the unthinkable — union work stoppages aimed at hobbling one of Detroit's automakers in order to extract yet greater guarantees of benefits and unemployment pay from all three companies.
You reap what you sow. The consumer is the ultimate king. Consumers vote their hard-earned dollars in favor of producers and service providers, just as they cast preference votes for candidates to political office.
Thus, rather than petitioning Washington to be a tax agent for Detroit's account, it behooves auto execs to make their strongest case for lower corporate income taxes, less onerouscorporate average fuel economyand environmental regulations, and an all-out effort to bring U.S. oil, natural gas and nuclear power to the market. Promoting these economic policies would enhance the U.S. economy at large as well as Detroit's prospects. Let's examine each one.
First, Detroit auto execs are in a strong position to advocate lower corporate income tax rates. Far from being self-serving, reducing America's corporate income tax rates from second highest on Earth (39 percent) to levels competitive with the European Union(26 percent) or Ireland (12 percent) would confer a national multiplier effect on job creation, productivity and the supply of re-investible capital.
Second, advocating moratoria and phase-outs of counterproductive CAFE and environmental regulations would begin the process of liberating scarce financial and labor resources to meet customer demand for vehicle quality, styling, servicing and price.
Third, Detroit's automakers must urge Washington to allow more aggressive pursuit of conventional, domestic energy. Search, retrieval, refining, transport and storage operations are compatible with America's traditional technological and economic leadership. Realizing our vast domestic energy output potential would propel all U.S. industries. After all, low-cost energy inputs are key to our comparative trade advantages. As we now know, falling energy prices also expand consumer discretionary income, the lynchpin of profitable auto sales.
Failure to advocate fundamental long-term reforms of labor, tax, environmental, CAFE and energy policies still leaves the default option of Chapter 11 bankruptcy proceedings. In many respects, this would be an ironic outcome for many suppliers to Detroit's automakers. After years of resourceful cost cutting and state-of-the-art innovation, many U.S. suppliers are globally competitive. With their assistance, the automakers themselves might salvage promising parts of their operations, here and abroad, and better confront global and domestic realities.
Complacency afflicts everyone, regardless of wealth or geography, in every realm and human endeavor. When Detroit goes to Washington, its executives must understand that they are dealing with politicians whose lives are determined in a largely "zero-sum" political world (i.e., someone wins and someone loses).
The economic world is a much more positive reality. Workers and firms who are eternally vigilant forthe shifting demands of the marketplace are rewarded with expanded income, benefits and job opportunities. More dollars are voted their way. In other words, when sound economic principles are followed, the economy flourishes and we're all winners.

#####

David L. Littmann is the senior economist for the Mackinac Center for Public Policy, a research and educational institute headquartered in Midland, Mich. Permission to reprint in whole or in part is hereby granted, provided that the author and the Center are properly cited.

[walls]

I forgot to ask...what is a "radical free market"?

[walls]

another excellent article...

Bush and Obama Opt for Corporatism over Freewheeling Capitalist Economy

by David Boaz

David Boaz is executive vice president of the Cato Institute and author of The Politics of Freedom: Taking on the Left, the Right, and Threats to Our Liberties.
Added to cato.org on December 17, 2008

This article appeared in Investors Business Daily on December 17, 2008

Is Barack Obama a socialist? Not really. Is George W. Bush a free marketer? Not hardly. In fact, right now they both seem to be pursuing policies that are neither socialist nor laissez-faire but rather corporatist.
The Bush administration has spent close to a trillion dollars to keep the managers of big companies in the driver's seat. Instead of a free-market policy of letting the market determine winners and losers, the administration says Bear Stearns, AIG, Citigroup and other big Wall Street firms are "too big to fail." They can take dramatic risks and the taxpayers will cover them.
For the first time, the government is supporting mortgages and consumer borrowing — up to $800 billion worth. As critics complain that banks have lured consumers into mountains of unaffordable debt, the government is seeking to shore up credit cards, auto loans and other consumer debt.
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