[ergohead]

Originally Posted by cedershack

i did not know that water is renewable. i mean i did know that you can create it with some h2 and some and little bit of energy but cant that be the same with gold just takes a little bit more energy. money is what humans make it. money is a scale not a substance. you can only make something of value if you value it. that is my point. gold is only as valuable as we make it. I now understand why we dont back up our economy with precious metals because it works the same way. just because you think something is worth 5 dollars doesnt mean i do. do you understand what i am trying to say?

If you lived in a community of 10,000, or a community of 5.5 billion, and the majority of inhabitants found gold valuable, but you didn't, but you possessed some, it is still valuable whether you value it or not.

One reason why it is valuable, is that, contrary to your argument, the value of Gold is the least belief-based of any other form or fiction of money.

Gold isn't rare because people believe it's rare. It isn't durable because people believe it's durable. And, it isn't malleable because people believe it's malleable.

People can believe anything they want. People are free to believe for instance, that Federal Reserve Notes containing words, numbers and symbols are valuable. Some people might believe they are so valuable that one of them demarcated with the numeral 1 can buy a lobster dinner. But unfortunately for them, not many restaurant owners share that belief.

Some people invest their lives in believing. (Trust Me)

Some people invest their lives in understanding. (Pay Me)

My advice - Avoid as much as possible any institutions displaying the words:
Trust - Fidelity - Guaranty

When I was growing up in the fifties, there were signs all over Flint that said "Gasoline 37¢ per gallon". Back then, people believed those signs, but as time went on, people stopped believing them, so the signs were changed to read, "Gasoline $4.59 per gallon". Why did people's beliefs change about the the price of gasoline over time?

[darstar]

Originally Posted by cedershack

So you agree with me then.

I agree that you do not understand the valve of Gold. You do not have to like it , just as you don't have to like greenbacks , but , thats what most people use for money. The value of Gold is established , its traded daily as a commodity , just like oil. yes , Some LIKE it for its historical -traditional jewelery value , that was what I explained to you with the India culture. However , its much more than that , Gold is a standard , cause , there is only so much of it. You can't make it , or print it , like the false money we use that is printed daily. Gold is a hedge against inflation , it is measure of value , the world over. Now , do you understand ?

[cedershack]

i understand that we value gold. and i understand value. anything and i mean anything is valuable if enough people believe it. it becomes a standard. well why cant land be used as a backbone then, thats not being made anymore. the point of my idea is gold became standard of value, i agree with all of you on this. but how can we keep changing the dollar value of gold. why is because we(humans) make it more valuable. gold does not have absolute value. what would happen if we started digging down in the earth's crust and all of sudden we realized that 300 miles down we hit solid gold and it when completely around the world like that. i would say gold would be pretty much worthless then. right?

[darstar]

Originally Posted by cedershack

i understand that we value gold. and i understand value. anything and i mean anything is valuable if enough people believe it. it becomes a standard. well why cant land be used as a backbone then, thats not being made anymore. the point of my idea is gold became standard of value, i agree with all of you on this. but how can we keep changing the dollar value of gold. why is because we(humans) make it more valuable. gold does not have absolute value. what would happen if we started digging down in the earth's crust and all of sudden we realized that 300 miles down we hit solid gold and it when completely around the world like that. i would say gold would be pretty much worthless then. right?

No , it would be worth more. The reason Gold is not used as a monetary coin of the realm , is cause there is not enough of it to go around. It is also hoarded . The US one time was on the gold standard , our paper money was backed by gold and silver. For every dollar amount of exchange , there was equal in Ft. Knox......... That all went away , when we could no longer hold up the amount of gold , cause we were printing too much money ( inflation ) .Now , No one knows , just how much gold IS in Ft. Knox , if any, the Government won't tell...read up on it , the history of gold is very interesting.

[cedershack]

i am going to agree to disagree on this. i like your points but maybe i not making mine clear enough.

[ergohead]

Originally Posted by cedershack

gold does not have absolute value.

No, it doesn't have absolute value, it has market value and use value - And, because of its qualitative values, it works great as a medium of exchange.

Originally Posted by cedershack

what would happen if we started digging down in the earth's crust and all of sudden we realized that 300 miles down we hit solid gold and it when completely around the world like that. i would say gold would be pretty much worthless then. right?

Not right. It would at least retain the value of its scarcity defined by its cost of mining. Ocean water is loaded with gold. However, to argue your point, if gold did somehow become common as dirt or lead, Gold from the Sea? it would lose an important quality (rarity) needed for sound money. Plutonium is scarcer than gold, but dang it, it ain't that convenient to carry around or store Plutonium - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. It makes lousy jewelry, dental crowns, and no one has ever worshiped a plutonium calf.

However, gold has been prospected and mined in every major civilization for thousands and thousands of years, which quite reasonably argues for its continued scarcity. Again, reason, not belief. Gold : prices, facts, figures & research : How much? Where? Who? and Gold - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But for those who value the treasures in heaven over gold, go to this site:
Ocean Content Search Page View

[ergohead]

COMPARING THE INTRINSIC VALUE OF GOLD WITH THE INTRINSIC VALUE OF FEDERAL RESERVE NOTES

Pound for pound Federal Reserve Notes (FRN's) when burned, put out a significantly larger amount of BTU's than the burning of Gold.

Strangely though, when burned, fifty dollar notes release the same amount of BTU's as one dollar notes. Believe it or not!

A gold ring could quite possibly last a billion years, whereas, FRN's last on average, three years.

If FRN's had images of Jesus Christ on them, it would be highly likely to be more highly valued in a Christian community than a Jewish, Islamic, or Hindu community.

A Gold Coin, however, with an image of Jesus Christ might just be as closely valued in a Jewish, Islamic or Hindu society as in a Christian community. It is doubtful that very many would toss it into the ocean. Course, this is only my opinion.

[ergohead]

Originally Posted by michmoldman

The thing I would like to see, is make it as easy as possibe for any person or persons to start up a business. Not sure how, maybe low, low interest loans with a few years grace period before starting to pay them back. Also, no taxes on them for at least a few years. Give everyone who has a product or service, enough time to get up and running. Once they grow and start hiring and making money, then they can pay loans and taxes. There are a lot of smart people with many who may just have the next big thing.

Well, I don't have the next big thing . . . . but, get a load of this:

http://www.ergoweb.com/news/detail.cfm?id=2301

This assault on liberty is launching in Michigan.

So . . . . The Government wants to force the good folks in Western Michigan to only manufacture healthy office furniture - That is, expensive office furniture.

That Robert Reich Labor Secretary under the Clinton administration tried to pull this off nationally, but failed. Here's why: In Socialist Europe many countries passed national laws requiring that all businesses must provide one of those sit-kneel chairs where your knees and butt are supported by separate cushions for every 10 persons it employed. Of course, the Bluefly argument, that everyone must be forced to be healthy, was used to get the law passed - but the real reason was that it put more people to work, in the chair industry. This was a socialist jobs creation program.

After 10 years, there was a Pan-European epidemic of damaged meniscus' caused by constant stationary pressure on the employees' knees. Now, it is verboten to expose employees to sit-kneel chairs in Germany.

Today, in most European countries, employers must provide height adjustable work surfaces for all workers. It never really caught on in the U.S. because most Americans don't like adjusting their table tops up and down all throughout the day. I took a big loss as a result of that user- preference. I couldn't sell my patents for height adjustable furniture to the Dutchies in Western Michigan. http://www.freepatentauction.com/mem...34a6d48072d59c Of course, those folks don't like outsiders, either.

The genius of my inventions, was that they were the most inexpensive to manufacture, ergonomic furniture. But, a business has the right to make "business" decisions.

The furniture industry world-wide is spending most of its resources on making and marketing "green" furniture. I wonder if Barako is going to decide that green IS ergonomic. Now, that's broad! Hey, that's Progressive!

[ergohead]

Originally Posted by cedershack

i am a huge fan of buying american made products. i currently live in the south because i am military. no i didnt join to fight in the war, or because the economy is terrible. i didnt to get the gi bill so i could afford college. i will be back home in 7 months after 4 yrs of this. but back to the south. i think they have forgotten what america is or they never knew. no one buys anything american here i mean no one. they love their walmarts why because its cheap. i have seen countless hondas, toyotas with "i am an american" novelty license plates on the front. if that isnt a slap in the face to america i dont know what is. there is so much truth to that bumper sticker i think goes something like "unemployed, keep buying foreign". i say we start making new factories that make pens, candles, plates, etc... back here. i mean how hard is it to make these things. we have the space and the empty buildings for it.

Years ago, an American news reporter asked a Russian, "Why can't you Russians make decent products?"

The Russian answered, "Well, they pretend to pay us - and we pretend to work".

In America, slaves are much more expensive to keep and maintain. In China, slaves are disposable. Here, they are all armed.

Sorry, if this sounds inflammatory. It is really inflationary.

Worst thing you can do to an economic fire is to throw paper money (more) on the fire.

Fiat Paper Money by Rep. Ron Paul

Also, our labor supply has been inflated - with illegal aliens.

I wonder what it is about the word, illegal, that Mr. Bush doesn't understand.

Answer: He understands - he only looks stupid.

If Americans were able to change their lifestyles to that of the illegals, there might be a hope for recovery. Course, they'd need to be paid with real money. Wanted!

[MI-IRISH]

Well, I don't have the next big thing . . . . but, get a load of this:

Michigan Draft Ergonomics Standard Under Fire from Business Groups

This assault on liberty is launching in Michigan.

So . . . . The Government wants to force the good folks in Western Michigan to only manufacture healthy office furniture - That is, expensive office furniture.

That Robert Reich Labor Secretary under the Clinton administration tried to pull this off nationally, but failed. Here's why: In Socialist Europe many countries passed national laws requiring that all businesses must provide one of those sit-kneel chairs where your knees and butt are supported by separate cushions for every 10 persons it employed. Of course, the Bluefly argument, that everyone must be forced to be healthy, was used to get the law passed - but the real reason was that it put more people to work, in the chair industry. This was a socialist jobs creation program.

After 10 years, there was a Pan-European epidemic of damaged meniscus' caused by constant stationary pressure on the employees' knees. Now, it is verboten to expose employees to sit-kneel chairs in Germany.

Today, in most European countries, employers must provide height adjustable work surfaces for all workers. It never really caught on in the U.S. because most Americans don't like adjusting their table tops up and down all throughout the day. I took a big loss as a result of that user- preference. I couldn't sell my patents for height adjustable furniture to the Dutchies in Western Michigan.

They don't need a law for ergonomics,they already have one,it's called the general duty clause.This is just another case of future problems that are coming down the pipe for and by OSHA.They are needing a cause to justify their reason for existance after the last few years of dimal response in oversight of safety practices,and a need for explanation to the new administration.I can bet that OSHA is going to become more severe in it's practices and compliance inspections now that the new administration is taking over,companies are really going to sweat it