[sci311]

Congratulations to the Japanese automakers. They are winning the war of perception. They have benefitted greatly from our consumer ignorance.

First, there are many people under the assumption that their Hondas, Toyotas, Nissans, and such are more "American" then they actually are. Obviously this can be taken in many ways, so I'll get to the worst case examples that I've heard. I have personally talked to people who thought their car was "American made" when it is not (including my mother for God's sake). I was even told by a college professor and a social studies teacher that ALL Nissans and Hondas were "American made" respectively.

Secondly, many people are also under the assumption that their Japanese car is of much better quality than a domestic. Silent recalls have strengthed this perception. I can't back this up with any statistics, but I have been told by someone in the industry that Toyota had the second most recalls last year (?). Maybe I shouldn't have stated this since I don't have all the statistics, but on the other hand many people seem to state their opinion as fact so why be different.

According to last year's JD Power survey of three year old vehicles (2003 models), the domestic brands averaged 222.3 problems per 100 vehicles while the Japanese brands averaged 224.2 problems per vehicle. The domestic brands included Ford, Mercury, Lincoln, Buick, Cadillac, Oldsmobile, Chrysler, Pontiac, GMC, Chevrolet, Dodge, Jeep, and Saturn. The Japanese brands included Lexus, Toyota, Acura, Honda, Infiniti, Subaru, Nissan, Mazda, Mitsubishi, Izuzu, and Suzuki. Mercury, Buick, and Cadillac took second, third, and fourth place respectively behind Lexus. By the way, the 2005 numbers for the same survey had 236.6 for the Japanese and 223.5 for the domestics (again this is PROBLEMS per 100 vehicles).

Here is what it all comes to, JOBS. The fact is that we are bleeding here in Michigan. Many people around here are frustrated and rightly so. They see their livelihood disappearing in front of their eyes, but most are decent hard working people that will not resort to vandalism of your Japanese car. Please consider this the next time you plan on purchasing a new vehicle, for every 100 GM vehicles that are purchased, for example, you are supporting about twice as many American jobs than for every 100 Hondas or Toyotas that are purchased. And these numbers don't include all the jobs associated with suppliers or other businesses dependent on the American automotive industry or else the disparity in these numbers would be much greater.

We are outsourcing the thing that made our country an economic superpower, industry. Don't fool yourself, we are losing much more than we are gaining all across the country. Sure the domestic automakers should take much of the blame, but so should the politicians that made the playing field unlevel and to the hordes of uninformed people that don't see what this is leading to, and that is economic suicide. Buy your Honda, shop at Walmart, we may be working there sooner than later.

[M TYPE X]

While I wouldn't trust my social science peers as a definitive source on automotive industry knowledge, I also would not trust JD Powers: an-all-but-in-legal-terms wholly owned subsidiary of General Motors!

[sci311]

Originally Posted by M TYPE X

While I wouldn't trust my social science peers as a definitive source on automotive industry knowledge, I also would not trust JD Powers: an-all-but-in-legal-terms wholly owned subsidiary of General Motors!

In regards to the professor and the teacher, they certainly are not a definitive source on automobiles for any reason other than that they buy them, put gas in them, and drive them around. If these two intelligent, socially-conscious people thought that they were driving "American-made" Japanese brands, then I have to wonder about all those other consumers out there and if they know where their cars came from.

As far as JD Powers is concerned, I don't know what to say about them other than they should have done a better job for the home team. Ford-Lincoln-Mercury bettered GM by an average of 22 problems per 100 vehicles.

[scirocco22]

I'm the OP of this thread and I didn't mean that I necessarily drive or own solely Japanese cars. I've owned my share of Fords, GMs, and Chrysler products through the years as well as German and Japanese vehicles.

I've also been a "union member" all my working life; since my first job in high school until my recent early retirement. Although I've tried diligently at various times during my working years to buy UAW vehicles, I had terrible experiences with them. Without an exception, the ones I've owned have been poorly assembled and unreliable vehicles, leaving me stranded many times and also with huge repair bills along with the irritation and inconveniences of having to schedule all of those repairs, etc. Conversely, for some strange reason, all the Japanese built cars I've owned have had almost no problems at all. Coincidence? ...perhaps.

Granted, when buying a Japanese vehicle that's assembled in the U.S., the profits ultimately end up back in Japan but at least they're creating jobs here in this country. I currently own a Subie Outback assembled in Indiana. Obviously, the profits from the sale of that car are being sent back to Japan but I still can take a bit of solace knowing that some jobs here in this country were justified by my buying that car.

But back to my original question. I didn't have a Toyota back then, I just heard that one shouldn't be driving an import around Michigan "if you know what's good for ya." I think that was at least 25 years ago. I just wondered if things have changed now. I have no idea how many imported cars you see driving around on Michigan streets. I was just curious. It seems like it still may be that way to some extent even today.

--'rocco

[cksh]

Its still that way but maybe not as bad. There are an incredible amount of domestic vehicles around when compared to imports. Maybe 10 to 1 where I live. But what is an import these days? According to some it doesn't matter where it is built as long as the profits go back to GM or Ford. So their Fusion built in Mexico is more American than my Nissan built in Tennesee. And if that isn't enough for you to believe you are Un-American they use the fact that their car has more Domestic content then mine. I don't know what they will finally call me when my car has more domestic content then theirs.

And I am not sure what they think those profits are being used for that do stay here. I am sure some of it is going to investing in plants outside of our country anyways to take away more jobs.

Oh well, I drive what I like. I lease so who cares if it breaks down after a few years. I will get a brand new one to ride into the dirt. I have owned fords and chryslers but haven't tried GM yet. Their cars just do not appeal to me and since I lease they can't even pull that relibaility arguement on me. because who knows the truth anymore about which cars are reliable. Most articles are bought and paid for.

[iamweasel]

Originally Posted by scirocco22

Granted, when buying a Japanese vehicle that's assembled in the U.S., the profits ultimately end up back in Japan but at least they're creating jobs here in this country. I currently own a Subie Outback assembled in Indiana. Obviously, the profits from the sale of that car are being sent back to Japan but I still can take a bit of solace knowing that some jobs here in this country were justified by my buying that car.

--'rocco

Just note that for every job Subaru brought to the US, 5-10 americans lost their jobs in the process. I don't expect most people who work outside of the industry to know all the facts so I'm not trying to insult you here. Certainly buying a Subaru built in Indiana is better than buying one built in Japan.

Why does your Indiana-built Subaru cost Americans their jobs? Because most of the parts on your vehicle are still from overseas. There is a HUGE value chain that people forget about when talking about vehicles being assembled in the US. About $1-2K of the cost of a vehicle is in the assembly process, yet $10-$15K worth of material is in the car. Where a car is physically built matters very little in the grand scheme of things money-wise. (But is a huge deal on perception.)

The "Domestic Content" rule is one of the most confusing and misleading stats there is. It only recognizes the final assembly point of an assembled product and not where the parts actually come from.

The Toyoya Camry gets about 90% of their parts from overseas but their domestic content actually reads somewhere in the 50% range or higher. Why? I'll give you an example of their suspension module. They ship in their shocks, springs, etc from Japan/China into a warehouse outside their plant in the US. They pay some guy $10/hour to assemble the pieces together, and then it gets sent across the street into the Camry assembly plant as a "module." Since the final assembly point of the "module" is in the US, they can classify all those parts as "US" even though none of them actually came from here.

[sci311]

Originally Posted by cksh

And I am not sure what they think those profits are being used for that do stay here. I am sure some of it is going to investing in plants outside of our country anyways to take away more jobs.

And the reason that domestic brands have to outsource more and more? To even stay remotely competive with the import brands. It costs too much to build an entire car here and price it at a level on par with some of the foreign brands. Either that or they cut back on features or use the absolute cheapest American parts possible. The problem there, the cars are more unappealing and unreliable. As long as the government allows unfair trade practices, the domestic auto companies don't have much choice. BTW, if new CAFE standards go into effect, this problem of outsourcing and building out of country will get worse. Don't get me wrong, I do want cars to more efficient, but the way the system is set up you can kiss more American jobs good-bye.

[scirocco22]

sci311-- Interesting points. I'm curious what's going to happen to the U.S. auto industry but at the same time, scared.

cksh-- yeah, all that I know right now is that because of what I stated in my previous post, I haven't purchased an American-badged vehicle in some years now because of the hassles I've had with them in the past. Un-American? ...I don't know. I just like to think that I'm exercising my rights buying what I think will give me the most for my money and that takes into effect that the vehicle be reliable. Perhaps someday I will again feel comfortable buying a Ford or GM product.

iamweasel-- Wow, an eye opener. I have no reason to disbelieve what you're saying ...it makes sense. In fact, what you say about the parts and "domestic content" is logical in all respects and I have no doubt that it's true. Thanks for enlightening me.

--'rocco

[cksh]

What are CAFE standards? I do not think I have heard of that term.

You are right about the trade practices. I don't think we will be able to change that. someone (or rather lots of someone's) have probably been bought off and will lose money if the trade laws change.

I think it will all balance out in the end. Might take 30 or even 50 years but of course that doesn't help American workers now. Wages here have been pretty stagnant and companies are realizing that even China is expensive if you want to save money on labor (They figured this out with Mexico long ago). Everyone wants their piece of the pie. Next stop with American jobs...Southeast Asia (Vietnam etc).

We supply to GM and they try to force us to use China to reduce costs. What is scary is that they do not realize that you can only save on labor when assembling. Lots of countries do not have the expertise to even tool some of the parts so they end up buying them from us and assembling them there. We tried to get some quotes to get our equipment built there and it wound up being more expensive because the labor was simple but the parts were impossible to machine outside the US. They will run out of countries to go to soon enough

Everyone wants a piece of what we've got. I imagine even China and those places will be in the same boat we are. Trying to keep jobs there but being underpriced by their neighbor. We will emerge with smaller but relatively great domestic car companies (hopefully).

Maybe I am a wishful thinker and believe that someday the world will balance out. Hopefully my grandkids will be able to work in manufacturing if they so choose. But I think we are beyond fixing anything and might have to wait for this ride to end in the next few decades.

But please take everything I say with a grain of salt. I am a disgruntled Automotive Engineer

[iamweasel]

Originally Posted by scirocco22

sci311-- Interesting points. I'm curious what's going to happen to the U.S. auto industry but at the same time, scared.

cksh-- yeah, all that I know right now is that because of what I stated in my previous post, I haven't purchased an American-badged vehicle in some years now because of the hassles I've had with them in the past. Un-American? ...I don't know. I just like to think that I'm exercising my rights buying what I think will give me the most for my money and that takes into effect that the vehicle be reliable. Perhaps someday I will again feel comfortable buying a Ford or GM product.

iamweasel-- Wow, an eye opener. I have no reason to disbelieve what you're saying ...it makes sense. In fact, what you say about the parts and "domestic content" is logical in all respects and I have no doubt that it's true. Thanks for enlightening me.

--'rocco

I think people should buy the cars they like best - period. Now I do suggest whenever possible try to support the home team but I certainly cannot argue with anyone shying away from GM/Ford if they've had problems in the past. (Personally, I just refuse to by asian products as much as possible since those countries do not play fair in the game of world trade. I'll buy european in a hearbeat as I do believe in open world trade but it must be FAIR. So I refuse to purchase Sony products and will get Philips instead, etc.)

I just get ticked when people like my Aunt buys an Accord and says "Well I just got it because its built in the US and I want to support our economy." I tell her that is complete BS and she should just be honest that she bought the car for x, y or z reason. Don't insult me or the folks who spent many years of their lives working in the domestic auto industry by saying that. I recognize it's a complicated business so I don't mean to come down on people like her. I tell her that if people were aware of the entire value-chain process and how things really work they MAY alter their purchase decision.

People bash on Ford, GM, Chrysler so much it gets frustrating to people like me who root for them. Look people, do you think there is a reason they are ALL struggling? Sure there are mistakes made and they have some stupid execs and/or products, but in-large they all aren't THAT stupid. (This includes the whole US supply base.) It's not a coincendence that almost all of them are struggling to compete with low-cost countries overseas.