[sci311]

Originally Posted by Drover

Is it even worth mentioning that one of the "Big 3" is a German subsidiary?

Obviously, the term "Big 3" is technically not applicable anymore. Maybe it's a local thing to still use this term. Just a generic way around to refer to GM, Ford, and Chrysler together. The Chrysler group is still "based" in Auburn Hills if that means anything anymore.

[Drover]

Originally Posted by sci311

Obviously, the term "Big 3" is technically not applicable anymore. Maybe it's a local thing to still use this term. Just a generic way around to refer to GM, Ford, and Chrysler together. The Chrysler group is still "based" in Auburn Hills if that means anything anymore.

It's little more than a legal distinction for tax purposes. Kind of like Subaru of America, based in Cherry Hill NJ, is an American company on paper...

[iamweasel]

Originally Posted by Drover

It's little more than a legal distinction for tax purposes. Kind of like Subaru of America, based in Cherry Hill NJ, is an American company on paper...

Not quite...

While Chrysler is certainly less American than they used to be since Mercedes bought them, they are still far more American than someone like Subaru.

Think of the biggest pieces of the value chain and where the money goes:

Profit: Chrysler=Germany / Subaru=Japan
Material Cost: Chrysler=US / Subaru = Japan
R&D: Chrysler=US / Subaru = Japan, maybe SOME in the US
Admin: Chrysler=US / Subaru = US
Assembly Labor: Chrysler=US / Subaru=US/Japan Depending on the Vehicle

So as you can see Chrysler, even though their profits go back to Germany, still has a solid presence here. Subaru however, aside from some white collar jobs, still has most of their value going back across the ocean.

I have several friends who I used to work with that are now working for Nissan in Nashville, TN. Believe me, they have nowhere near the presence in this country as Ford, GM, etc. A couple of them work in Product Development and don't like their jobs now since they require many late night/early morning meetings because they have to deal with Japan so much. Even though they assemble here 90% of their parts come from overseas and the majority of the engineering is done there, too. (One of them even works on the Titan which was "supposedly" designed and built here with US parts. He is the one who tells me how they work around the domestic content rules to make it appear this way.)

[scirocco22]

Again, some eye-opening info, weasel. Interesting comments.

Man, I almost feel a bit guilty now buying a Subaru.

eh, but I'll get over it quick.


--'rocco

[AussieMale]

Hi scirocco22

Dont feel bad for GM & Ford they have there finger in the pie mate for a very long time now.
They own good percentages of most of the Japanese makers for starters anyway.
Its a pitty they didn't learn anything from the Japanese as major percentage owners.
EG... I recall Ford's share in Mazda to be 70% plus & thats just to mention one.
Im sure if you did some research on the matter you would find lots of info on it.

[iamweasel]

Originally Posted by AussieMale

Hi scirocco22

Dont feel bad for GM & Ford they have there finger in the pie mate for a very long time now.
They own good percentages of most of the Japanese makers for starters anyway.
Its a pitty they didn't learn anything from the Japanese as major percentage owners.
EG... I recall Ford's share in Mazda to be 70% plus & thats just to mention one.
Im sure if you did some research on the matter you would find lots of info on it.

Where did you come up with this info - it's not even close to being accurate.

Toyota and Honda are 100% independant companies. Nissan is joined with Renault out of France.

Ford owns 33% of Mazda and they will never own any more than that. Why? If the percentage goes up there is some "status" Mazda will lose with its home country (Japan) that would significantly increase costs such as taxes, etc. Ford and Mazda do a lot of joint engineering, though, and act like they are a joint venture for the most part.

That pretty much sums up Japan's major players. For the most part GM, Ford or Chrysler have no affiliation with them.

[AussieMale]

The percentage changes all the time , do note i did say i recall im talking over 25 years ago as Mazda was in major trouble n Ford came to there aid was what we heard over here.
What the % is now days i have no idea. Ford is about to sell or has already sold 70 or 80% of Aston Martin if your not aware to a private sector which was in the news in the past few weeks.

At the end of the day people should not feel bad with the brand they pick ,most car makers these days still have there finger in the pie one way or another & there not gonna always tell you the whole story as it may not be in there interest to tell all.
Go have a look at Ford's home page im sure you will see Volvo in there lineup.
Once again i dont care about the % of ownership. Buy what you want n be happy at the end of the day is all i say.

[cksh]

I agree. Buy what you like.

Every manufacturer has their lemons. I used to buy chryslers but got sick of the dealers service departments. They would never fix my car even when it was covered under warranty. Does that mean I would have better luck with an import? No! But Chrysler lost a customer. Would I have better luck with GM and Ford? Maybe. Maybe not. I just bought my first Import and love it. Was shown where the service department was located and introduced to the service manager. Never happened to me before.

I work for a Japanese company. Although my companies main customers are Japanese owned automakers they supply to GM and Ford. By buying one of them money goes back to Japan. Sure its a small piece of the pie but you are supporting Japanese companies regardless. I do not worry about American jobs being lost because if you buy Domestic you are still costing American jobs. Maybe not as many but if if me buying an import cost 5 and buying a domestic cost 1 job do I care? Maybe. But then I am not supporting my company am I. The one that pays me. And! I am still supporting the American that sold me my car, the one who services it, and the one that delivered my car to the dealer assembled by American workers. Plus I still have a job. Its a dog eat dog world as someone used to say to me. Welcome to the world of At-will Employment. My employer can fire me without notice and for no reason. GM wouldn't hire me. Ford or Chrysler wouldn't either when I needed a job. And that was when the Automotive was booming. Now that I am more employable I remember that.

For every 1 job that Japan creates we lose 5? That used to bother me until I stepped foot into a GM plant. I am with some that refuse to support the giant that is GM. I refuse to feel guilty and everyone else who buys imports should too. Corporation are there to make money. GM will sell its soul to make more. But like I said. They don't pay me.

Bottom line:

All companies are there to make money(Domestic or Import). The only reason they even try to make you believe they are fighting for American jobs is to get you to buy more of their cars.

They all have their lemons.

They all have reliability issues.

Buy what you like and what you have had luck with in the past.

Sorry for my rant. But I hate it when people try to make me feel guilty because my neighbor may lose his job. It's a me, me world Yes I am selfish when it comes to supporting my family. If GM has to go out of business to do it? So be it But! that does not mean I would never buy one if they produce something I don't find ugly.

[iamweasel]

Originally Posted by AussieMale

The percentage changes all the time , do note i did say i recall im talking over 25 years ago as Mazda was in major trouble n Ford came to there aid was what we heard over here.
What the % is now days i have no idea. Ford is about to sell or has already sold 70 or 80% of Aston Martin if your not aware to a private sector which was in the news in the past few weeks.

At the end of the day people should not feel bad with the brand they pick ,most car makers these days still have there finger in the pie one way or another & there not gonna always tell you the whole story as it may not be in there interest to tell all.
Go have a look at Ford's home page im sure you will see Volvo in there lineup.
Once again i dont care about the % of ownership. Buy what you want n be happy at the end of the day is all i say.

Believe me I have a very good understanding of who owns a piece of whom, etc. My initial reply to your post was because you said "They own good percentages of most of the Japanese makers for starters anyway" which is just flat-out wrong.

I am quite aware that Ford owns Aston Martin (for now), Volvo, Jag, etc. None of those are japanese companies, however.

[TughillTina]

Originally Posted by Torrey

I wouldn't own an American made car if it was given to me. I'd promptly sell it and buy Japanese. My Land Cruiser is 100% Japanese made, just the way I like it. I wouldn't buy a Toyota or Mercedes built here in the U.S. Those cars are more likely to fall apart like their American counterparts.

GM and other American made vehicles are built with shoddy engineering, and shoddy parts by people who do not demand perfection. That's the difference between the manufacturers here and there. The Japanese are PERFECTIONISTS by nature. That is who I want building my vehicle that I spend my hard earned money on. Not some guy who is only interested in hurrying up at work so he can get home in time to catch the super bowl. In short, American auto makers have failed the American people. "Lets build em cheap so they fall apart faster so they buy a new one sooner". Bad thinking. My old Land Cruiser which I STILL own has 400,000 miles on it. I bought a new Land Cruiser and still own the old one. I know it's reliable. Friends of mine who owned Ford and Chevy vehicles have switched to Toyota. Their trucks fell apart slowly but surely while mine looked like it was practically new. Their former trucks are in other peoples hands now, probably in need of constant repair while I still own mine and they run perfectly.

http://www.blueovalnews.com/index.ph..._articleid=469 Looks like your land cruiser needs to catch up a couple hundred thousand on the odometer before it touches this domestic. Please ppl every car manufacturer has lemons, Japanese cars are not bullet proof and to make a statement like this poster is just foolish.