[mkfarnam]

Originally Posted by WheredoIlive?

We can feel sorry for them, that their upbringing is so horrible. But honestly that doesnt mean I want to live by it or in it. A few can be saved, and I have seen this myself working in career I worked in: so do not think I coming from the land of naiviete'. However some of the core problems too many people are scared to even talk about because of the pressures of political correctness and more. I suffered badly in the ghetto, I am talking walking down the street worrying about getting robbed and raped and I did see an armed robbery once, where I managed to hide, where the guy robbed a whole group of people with a sawed off shot gun. I was jumped, a few times, knew some self defense back then due to a career working with incarcarated and violent youth and was street smart, and I was lucky. I had friends in the ghetto who had been raped, and more, one had a group of men who had gone wilding on her. I wont get into detail, let people figure that one out. I ended up in the ghetto via illness, had moved there for a job, but managed to escape but am doing everything in my power to make sure I do not end up in another ghetto. Even living near Benton Harbor brings back some of the nightmares of those days, which is why I am going to be leaving here. At least in Hillsdale MI I felt safe. {people do not realize that today it is MOSTLY MONEY that buffers one from the ghetto} The people who live in the ghetto suffer, some can escape by education and having a mentor like your friend, but one thing to remember while there are plenty of the evil people walking around there are good ones held under their seige. It is a shame all around.

I do not think poverty is necessarily the cause, there are other poor areas of the country where people do not follow a certain sociopathic ethos. The ghetto to be frank, and I have lived in two of them, one in Chicago, and worked in one has a certain culture that is POISON.

This NOT a race thing because there are plenty of folks of a certain race, who do not follow this CULTURE and even those of other races get drawn into the ghetto mentality {I saw violent and abusive folks of all colors in one of my partciular ghettos} but it is a culture based on DOG EAT DOG, NEVER LET ANYONE FRONT YOU=={ie disrespect you} Where HUSTLING {the ghetto word for stealing is glorified} and you are right about the degredating of intellectual pursuits and glorification of violence. The kids become the way they are, because they are notn taught anything else, they learn the sociopathic ethos of dog eat dog, fight to survive, and know nothing else. And to be honest many members of the media have profited from promoting evil things, sometimes I want to throw up, the few times Ive had MTV on, and just seeing the narcassistic sociopathic glorification of violence, wanton sex, and a warped materialsim not based on any reality.

I think just the fact that people are afraid to say the truth about the ghetto, that there is something wrong with cultural aspects of this, has held back any real change. Look at the trouble BIll Cosby got in for trying to sound the alarm!
Even just saying "I hate the ghetto, and I was afraid while living there, and I suffered as a victim of crimes and I refuse to ever live in another ghetto knowing as a disabled woman, I would be instant prey for the wolves" is enough to get you called a RACIST, when a person really isnt racist at all. It is this misguided political correctness that keeps the ghettos entrenched.

I lived in the outskirts of Benton Harbor (Sodus) in 68-69.(hated it) I know what you mean about Bento Harbor being a ghetto. It was very racial and you could even say it was still segregated.

[darstar]

Originally Posted by malamute

As thought he state of Michigan spends very little on education..... Michigan teachers are among the highest paid, Michigan schools are very well funded. These kids have schools.

Shipping them to Wyoming isn't going to help. What would they do there? Certainly they aren't about to want to work for a living and Wyoming doesn't offer anything near what Michigan does in welfare handouts.

You are missing the point. Its these depressed ,. poor , crime ridden neighborhoods that are costing the tax payers. A lot of fat cats own the slums buildings , . The people are trapped in these places. Its a profit motive for a few , but a drain on the rest of us. There is no reason in this land of plenty for these places to persist... There was a time when most of the Country was rural , we need to get back to it , start growing food again , and supplying the nation and the world with what we can produce. The factories have gone overseas , the farms, have not..

Knowing no other way , can be a bad thing. Unless you remove the environment , nothing will change. Show our young people there is a way of life , away from drugs , guns , and violence. If necessary , remove them by force ..... desperation is a strong motivator , to sink so low as to have to be subject to all this on a daily basis. Is it safety in numbers , mob rule , I am not sure.... What I do know , is there is poverty in rural America as well. More so than in the city , sometimes , yet , the crime does not seem to go along with the poverty. ... I don't have all the answers , but it does seem to me , we can buy our way out of a lot of intercity ghettos , as a lesser cost , than the cost of maintaining them. If it means half way camps , make work projects , then so be it. Give these unfortunates a reason to exist that is productive , not destructive , and we will all prosper.

[darstar]

Originally Posted by mkfarnam

I lived in the outskirts of Benton Harbor (Sodus) in 68-69.(hated it) I know what you mean about Bento Harbor being a ghetto. It was very racial and you could even say twas still segregated.

Just look at the difference , St. Joe , is not so bad. There must be a reason....and they are so close they run together.... Jobs are a lot of the problem , and , a lot of reason these places exist.

Same goes for the Coal Mines In KY.and W VA. poverty follows.... It was the employment that drew people to these places. It was the exploitation of the people that created the bad environment , only to worsen when the factory's left town, and , left the workers behind..... Big Business is responsible for most of the problems , they have been the breeding ground for bringing all the people together, in a lot of rust belt areas, the large , and medium sized communities.
We must demand a more responsible effort be put on Business to clean it up , along with the profits , they amass , and , then leave the mess for the tax payer. Business is now required to clean up the natural environment , why not the people environment as well ?

[Cliffie]

Wow, I feel like everyone has totally missed the point of this story. Of course your mileage may vary, but I think this assault is a bizarro aberration straight out of a disaster movie or maybe Children Of The Corn. I don't think it's any kind of clear comment on class struggle or the effects of poverty. That's even more true added up with other situations I'm aware of, like the gang of privileged frat boys who once roamed the streets of Ann Arbor, raping any unattended male they thought "looked gay," or a bunch of Richie Riches in Manhattan out for a bit of fun one night who beat a stranger badly enough to put him in the hospital because he wouldn't stop singing the National Anthem, or some crazy-ass thing like that.

For that matter, I don't even know where in Kalamazoo this happened. It could have been the prep-school distrct for all I know to the contrary.

[Bluefly]

Originally Posted by darstar

The prisons are way over crowded now. We must change things from the start. Its way to simplistic , to just blame this or that , depending on your politics.
Starting with education , and decriminalizing Marijuana use, would go a long way in lessening the populations of our prisons. It is true that a lot of the breeding ground for crime is the ghetto. These areas need to be closed down. Move the people out. I know it sounds strange , but , considering the cost for incarceration , medical , and welfare-child care , we could afford to relocate the people for much less cost. There is a lot of wide open spaces in places like Wyoming , that need populated. Show them the way , that there is hope for a better way of life , and , things will start to change,... If we need to pay the parents for doing a good job with their kids , it would be worth it. If we need to pay young girls , not to have baby's , it would be worth it..... Yes , the cost of doing nothing has now far exceeded the cost of prevention.

Great idea!

Our government could pay to move these "savages" to Wyoming. We could create "reservations" on which they could start over in the wide open country. We could build schools that teach them how to speak proper English and fade out their indigenous languages we collectively call "Ebonics". We could change their names from "Shaniqua" to "Sherry" and condition them to what we believe to be a "better way of life" - namely, ours.

As an expression of goodwill, we might even create a government bureau to represent their interests. We could put a little store in the federal building to sell their indigenous hip-hop music and beaded crafts because that's all they'll have since they live even further from any opportunity for a legitimate livelihood than they did before.

But, rest assured, for extra income tourists could visit their reservations to see demonstrations of "real" black spiritual ceremonies (complete with singing and passionate preaching). Keep your camera at the ready! You might be lucky enough to catch a game of pick-up basketball - a favorite pastime for recreation and warrior training for this once proud people.

That's a proven model of success!

[mkfarnam]

Originally Posted by darstar

Just look at the difference , St. Joe , is not so bad. There must be a reason....and they are so close they run together.... Jobs are a lot of the problem , and , a lot of reason these places exist.

Same goes for the Coal Mines In KY.and W VA. poverty follows.... It was the employment that drew people to these places. It was the exploitation of the people that created the bad environment , only to worsen when the factory's left town, and , left the workers behind..... Big Business is responsible for most of the problems , they have been the breeding ground for bringing all the people together, in a lot of rust belt areas, the large , and medium sized communities.
We must demand a more responsible effort be put on Business to clean it up , along with the profits , they amass , and , then leave the mess for the tax payer. Business is now required to clean up the natural environment , why not the people environment as well ?

I agree with you here. Just last night on 20/20 they had a story on "poverty in the Kentucky coal mines.
Poverty is created in many ways and exists at many different stages or levels. In most cases (not all) it's up to that person to make the changes for better or worse. The cause can't be changed the out-turn can. Being Co-Dependent does nothing but keep you down.

[Cliffie]

Is everyone but me unaware that most crime is committed by middle-class people in pretty neighborhoods? They are more likely to commit various crimes -- strictly because there are more of these people -- and more likely to commit some crimes, like tax fraud, because how is a person with no money going to cheat the IRS out of taxes s/he doesn't owe? Ditto corporate crime, etc.

More than half of drug use and drug dealing are going on in nice neighborhoods. (Hint: they have more money to spend on this kind of thing.) And it's far from a state secret that poor inner-city kids are punished much more frequently and much more severely than kids from "nice families" committing the same crimes.

[WheredoIlive?]

Originally Posted by mkfarnam

I lived in the outskirts of Benton Harbor (Sodus) in 68-69.(hated it) I know what you mean about Bento Harbor being a ghetto. It was very racial and you could even say it was still segregated.

I hate it here. {I google this place before we moved here, and they had riots here even just a few years ago}

I just do not feel comfortable here. And its not just Benton Harbor, it is snooty St. Joe, {keep in mind I am disabled} People do not even talk to me like they did in Hillsdale where I even befriended people I met at grocery store and other places like that! Resort communities just do not have the same community cohesion. I have talked to others about this, and they said St. Joe is known as being well not as friendly.

This place is still segregated essentially. Anyone would be afraid of Benton Harbor: it is just bad, the hopelessness and rest just creeps into rest of town., they are redoing the downtown, but its all this rich Harbor Shores stuff, that wont benefit the average person, just more resort;gentifrication stuff. The priorities seem screwed up. They need JOBS real jobs, not just more service jobs for the extreme wealthy and even there, who knows what it will change, probably nothing. I can understand those who are upset about it.

This place isnt for me. it does have some nice stuff going for it, scenery, nice restaurants, beauty of the lake, I will miss that, but the rest, well, not for me.

[WheredoIlive?]

Originally Posted by Cliffie

Is everyone but me unaware that most crime is committed by middle-class people in pretty neighborhoods? They are more likely to commit various crimes -- strictly because there are more of these people -- and more likely to commit some crimes, like tax fraud, because how is a person with no money going to cheat the IRS out of taxes s/he doesn't owe? Ditto corporate crime, etc.

More than half of drug use and drug dealing are going on in nice neighborhoods. (Hint: they have more money to spend on this kind of thing.) And it's far from a state secret that poor inner-city kids are punished much more frequently and much more severely than kids from "nice families" committing the same crimes.

Well more white color crime is done in secret. I consider the Bail outs for the banks one of the BIGGEST CRIMES going, so you got that part right.

I guess at least you can walk down the street without getting harrassed, or beaten up or raped usually, so Im going to go with the place where yeah they probably are stealing gobs of money behind closed doors but will be leaving me alone.

All the crime and corruption filters down. The greed and mroe impacts this wholc country from the bail outs down to the ghetto.

[Bluefly]

Originally Posted by darstar
Just look at the difference , St. Joe , is not so bad. There must be a reason....and they are so close they run together.... Jobs are a lot of the problem , and , a lot of reason these places exist.

Same goes for the Coal Mines In KY.and W VA. poverty follows.... It was the employment that drew people to these places. It was the exploitation of the people that created the bad environment , only to worsen when the factory's left town, and , left the workers behind..... Big Business is responsible for most of the problems , they have been the breeding ground for bringing all the people together, in a lot of rust belt areas, the large , and medium sized communities.
We must demand a more responsible effort be put on Business to clean it up , along with the profits , they amass , and , then leave the mess for the tax payer. Business is now required to clean up the natural environment , why not the people environment as well ?

In contrast to your government-compelled Wyoming suggestion, I think that's actually a good idea. I was once at a meeting where people were proposing all these investments to restore a small town in Pennsylvania that was built for a factory (the whole town was).

When the factory left, the people didn't. I raised my hand and asked, "Why does this town need to still exist? It was created for a specfic purpose and now that purpose is gone."

The person conducting the meeting said, "Well, I don't know... no one's ever suggested that before."

I got some really evil looks from the townfolk - one woman just stared at me for the entire rest of the meeting. But I think my point was valid. We have all this sprawling development everywhere. Why not let towns fade back to nature that have no purpose anymore?

In the U.P. there are plenty of old mining towns whose purpose for existing ended years ago. Life goes on.