[littlechunky]

Muskegon Heights is Little Detroit, nothing good about it. Pure ghetto from City Hall to the drug dealers. Sure the real esate is cheap and affordable but who wants to live in conditions of a war zone. Build a fence around The Heights and watch the crime rate disappear in the nearby cities.

[baystater]

Grants to help fight housing blight in Muskegon, Muskegon Heights - MLive.com

[Indentured Servant]

Man…I have to say it. The unstated undercurrent here is race as Muskegon heights is about 80% black or more. In fact, the most hated, disparaged and denigrated areas of Michigan are ubiquitously “black”. The hated and ridiculed area of Grand Rapids is SE. Of course the grand daddy of them all is the nearly 90% black city of Detroit. Then there is Flint, Saginaw, and Benton Harbor….etc. Show me a predominately black area in Michigan….and I will show you an area that many, if not most, whites in Michigan ridicule and denigrate. This is sickening to me.

As an African American, none of these places, to me, are as bad as people make them seem. Do they have problems…..yes…..and so does this nation and is ponzi scheme economy that has only recently delayed an economic collapse that will result in many white communities feeling the time of economic pain that the black community felt….IN THE BEST OF TIMES. Think about that. The economic crisis and statistics of the national economy are said to be terrible and in a crisis, yet, black America has NEVER enjoyed statistics that good. Black rates of poverty have NEVER fallen below 23% nationally and have constantly been three times the rate of whites. Is it any wonder that things are worse in black areas?

It’s interesting that when blacks experience high rates of unemployment and poverty, traditionally, they were labeled as “lazy”. It was NEVER anything external, but internal failures. We were told that this is the land of opportunity for anyone who WANTED a job and wanted to work. Now, as many whites are being laid off and unemployed, no one is labeling them as lazy people who do not want to work in this land of boundless opportunities. In other words, whites are allowed external causation or correlation to their unemployment and such, while blacks are just lazy. “Well….there used to be plenty of jobs when blacks had high unemployment”. Well, there are millions of jobs now too…..that no excuse for people who don’t now have work either then.

All I can say is that turnabout is a mutha. What goes around comes back around.

[fwi]

There you go, pulling the race card like you people are doing more and more often these days!
Never mind the fact that all the ghetto cities you mentioned are predominently black, of course it's not your fault, it's the white people's fault, as usual!
Why don't you take responsibility for your lives and those that you bring into this world?
Oh yeah, the reason I am posting on the Muskegon forum is because my wife is from here. I am here right now and we have been coming here for the last 25 years and spend a lot of time here.........on the beach.
Occasionally we have to drive through (with doors locked of course) through the Heights.
I know Muskegon Heights, it is a ghetto! Don't even think of buying there.

[ckhthankgod]

Originally Posted by fwi

There you go, pulling the race card like you people are doing more and more often these days!
Never mind the fact that all the ghetto cities you mentioned are predominently black, of course it's not your fault, it's the white people's fault, as usual!
Why don't you take responsibility for your lives and those that you bring into this world?
Oh yeah, the reason I am posting on the Muskegon forum is because my wife is from here. I am here right now and we have been coming here for the last 25 years and spend a lot of time here.........on the beach.
Occasionally we have to drive through (with doors locked of course) through the Heights.
I know Muskegon Heights, it is a ghetto! Don't even think of buying there.

I think it is a combination of reasons, but in the same breath, many people do make it seem like it is just the people themselves and not other complex factors as well.

Also, Whites seem to be pulling the race card as much now too. So, it's not exclusive, if it even was.

[Indentured Servant]

Originally Posted by fwi

There you go, pulling the race card like you people are doing more and more often these days!
Never mind the fact that all the ghetto cities you mentioned are predominently black, of course it's not your fault, it's the white people's fault, as usual!
Why don't you take responsibility for your lives and those that you bring into this world?
Oh yeah, the reason I am posting on the Muskegon forum is because my wife is from here. I am here right now and we have been coming here for the last 25 years and spend a lot of time here.........on the beach.
Occasionally we have to drive through (with doors locked of course) through the Heights.
I know Muskegon Heights, it is a ghetto! Don't even think of buying there.

Respectfully, there would be no race card if not for the history of racism. Understand the basic law of nature, in that every action creates a reaction. Don’t expect black people to be void of the influence of natural law. It’s like someone getting hit in the head with a bat playing the “Pain Card”, and another attempting to disparage the claim of pain as somehow amoral. You need to ask yourself is it not natural for there to be a reaction, among blacks, to over 300 years of oppression. Of course there is and part of that reaction is an assumption of racism when white behavior impacts negatively upon blacks. I will be the first to say that blacks see more racism than there actually is…….and there is a lot of racism. However, on many occasions there have been events that I just did not see as racist, even though calls of racism were made. That is a conditioning of the past. No one can read minds but black folks know that for over 300 years, white society has demonstrated disfavor of black people. So if you have a problem with the race card, then you need to blame it on the past whites who swung the batS.

Of course, as humans, we ALL have problems of our own making. We ALL need to take responsibility of our lives. That is what it means to be HUMAN. We are not perfect by any means. However, what people often argue, implicitly of course, is that black people are further from perfection than white people, because of genetics. In other words, there is an implicit argument of white superiority and its corollary of black inferiority ingrained into the arguments of many, as they disparage SE GR, Detroit, the Heights and the like. Sure, we have a lot of problems that are of our own making…..just like other humans do. But black people will not accept the proposition that we are a bigger nemesis to ourselves than you are to yourselves, by virtue of genetics. If we are problematic to ourselves, genetics is not the culprit, but rather, it’s a reaction to external socioeconomic stimuli, such as centuries of oppression and degradation and the cultural impact it manifested upon “black culture”. Note that “black culture” is not “African Culture”. Rather, black culture is stamped: Made in the U.S.A.

I am a person of scientific reasoning. I deal in cause and effect. My interest is not observation, but rather, explanation. Why, why, why? Keep asking yourself why and for every answer ask why again....and I bet most of you will logically traverse to the root of your argument.....which is black inferiority/white supremacy.

[chiroptera]

I usually avoid the racial arguments because nobody changes anyone else's mind. I'm usually on the anti-bigot/anti-racist side of the argument, if it matters. And for what it's worth, I live in Flint and have defended the city's image and attacked bigotry on numerous other threads.

But...you make some excellent points, yet you were the one who initially brought up that the high crime and blighted cities tended to be predominantly black, and that soehow morphed into an argument that white people were being "racist" by suggesting that, say, Detroit or Muskegon were not really desireable areas. Which - looking at those two issues (high crime and blight) - happens to be true. Perhaps incidental and not correlation = causation, but true nonetheless, as you yourself pointed out.

So cause and effect, you're the expert here. Why is it that people can immigrate from terrible situations (some Hispanic populations, Vietnam and other Asian countries) and as a group tend to do very well - in fact, on many measures, better than the white population?

My own parents immigrated here from Northern Europe - I did not grow up in the USA - my family emigrated from the Holocaust and I lost grandparents in the camps...I'm no stranger to inherited persecution myself, technically speaking. And I daresay much more recently than anyone whose ancestors came over as slaves. My mother refused compensation when it was offered and I have never once in my life thought of myself as "inferior" or "persecuted" or anything else although I've certainly experienced it. Yes, I am aware that my experience is not the same as a black person in America.

But...why is it that not one single African country - including Liberia, which was populated initially by freed slaves, in fact had that country given to them but it's pretty much a sh**h*le now - have managed to do well without colonial intervention? (No African country has figured out how to build their own infrastructure or maximise their own natural resources and crops - go look at history, from pre-Roman, pre-bronze-age times it's only been those colonizing the continent who have effected change and progress.) Why is every single city in the world that has seen a large influx of immigrants from the African continent experiencing a whole lot of conflict, while immigrants in great numbers from other countries - even when outnumbering African immigrants - aren't fomenting unrest? Why is it that kind, humanitarian white people, even now in the 21st century, are going to Africa and teaching people that sh*tting right next to where they and their children live is not healthy, attracts flies and subsequent horrible diseases? (Go to former president Jimmy Carter's website.) Why is there still slavery, and child slavery, in parts of Africa? Why is there still horrible tribal violence in Africa? You cannot blame this on white supremacy - most of the countries sending missionaries and volunteers and medical help are European or American.

So it's not all due to "black inferiority/white supremacy." Otherwise most African nations would be doing quite well (none are; let me know if I'm incorrect) and black people in America - mostly young men - wouldn't be killing each other at absolutely stupefying rates. Flint is about 50% black, yet 90% of the murders and attempted murders in the city are black on black. White (or Asian or Hispanic) people aren't raising or killing aimless, violent young black people - black people are. Despite countless government programs, well meaning, mostly-liberal people like me, and decades of public education, African Americans are basically still in the toilet as a demographic on every single measure I can think of.

If you can see this as an honest question and not an attack, we might get somewhere. Because, as a mostly-very-liberal white person, I am truly baffled. I try as hard as I can to be open minded and politically correct, but the older I get, the more difficult that becomes.

Edit to add: Ooops, any liberal cred I had here is now toast.

Originally Posted by Indentured Servant

I am a person of scientific reasoning. I deal in cause and effect. My interest is not observation, but rather, explanation. Why, why, why? Keep asking yourself why and for every answer ask why again....and I bet most of you will logically traverse to the root of your argument.....which is black inferiority/white supremacy.

[Indentured Servant]

Originally Posted by chiroptera

I usually avoid the racial arguments because nobody changes anyone else's mind. I'm usually on the anti-bigot/anti-racist side of the argument, if it matters. And for what it's worth, I live in Flint and have defended the city's image and attacked bigotry on numerous other threads.

But...you make some excellent points, yet you were the one who initially brought up that the high crime and blighted cities tended to be predominantly black, and that soehow morphed into an argument that white people were being "racist" by suggesting that, say, Detroit or Muskegon were not really desireable areas. Which - looking at those two issues (high crime and blight) - happens to be true. Perhaps incidental and not correlation = causation, but true nonetheless, as you yourself pointed out.

So cause and effect, you're the expert here. Why is it that people can immigrate from terrible situations (some Hispanic populations, Vietnam and other Asian countries) and as a group tend to do very well - in fact, on many measures, better than the white population?

My own parents immigrated here from Northern Europe - I did not grow up in the USA - my family emigrated from the Holocaust and I lost grandparents in the camps...I'm no stranger to inherited persecution myself, technically speaking. And I daresay much more recently than anyone whose ancestors came over as slaves. My mother refused compensation when it was offered and I have never once in my life thought of myself as "inferior" or "persecuted" or anything else although I've certainly experienced it. Yes, I am aware that my experience is not the same as a black person in America.

But...why is it that not one single African country - including Liberia, which was populated initially by freed slaves, in fact had that country given to them but it's pretty much a sh**h*le now - have managed to do well without colonial intervention? (No African country has figured out how to build their own infrastructure or maximise their own natural resources and crops - go look at history, from pre-Roman, pre-bronze-age times it's only been those colonizing the continent who have effected change and progress.) Why is every single city in the world that has seen a large influx of immigrants from the African continent experiencing a whole lot of conflict, while immigrants in great numbers from other countries - even when outnumbering African immigrants - aren't fomenting unrest? Why is it that kind, humanitarian white people, even now in the 21st century, are going to Africa and teaching people that sh*tting right next to where they and their children live is not healthy, attracts flies and subsequent horrible diseases? (Go to former president Jimmy Carter's website.) Why is there still slavery, and child slavery, in parts of Africa? Why is there still horrible tribal violence in Africa? You cannot blame this on white supremacy - most of the countries sending missionaries and volunteers and medical help are European or American.

So it's not all due to "black inferiority/white supremacy." Otherwise most African nations would be doing quite well (none are; let me know if I'm incorrect) and black people in America - mostly young men - wouldn't be killing each other at absolutely stupefying rates. Flint is about 50% black, yet 90% of the murders and attempted murders in the city are black on black. White (or Asian or Hispanic) people aren't raising or killing aimless, violent young black people - black people are. Despite countless government programs, well meaning, mostly-liberal people like me, and decades of public education, African Americans are basically still in the toilet as a demographic on every single measure I can think of.

If you can see this as an honest question and not an attack, we might get somewhere. Because, as a mostly-very-liberal white person, I am truly baffled. I try as hard as I can to be open minded and politically correct, but the older I get, the more difficult that becomes.

Edit to add: Ooops, any liberal cred I had here is now toast.

You are correct in regards to many emotional topics, in that people emotionally invested rarely change their minds. I cannot say that it has ever been a goal of mine to change their peoples opinion on race. My goal is simply exposer or exposing. That’s it’s. After the exposure is completed, I am satisfied because any subsequent actions and belief is outside of my sphere of influence.

That said, you introduced yourself by giving me a background of yourself, when this discussion is not really about, your, or me, as individuals. It’s really not germane to introduce who side you usually take and what your beliefs have traditionally been, because this topic is…..again….not about YOU. However, since you made the topic about YOU, I will entertain the digression.

Remember when I said that I am about explanation and not observation? Do you remember when I said that if one just keeps asking why, to every observation or answer they come up with, then one can traverse to the subconscious root of their argument and beliefs? You made several observations about Africans, the impact of Africans in other places, Liberians etc. You also juxtaposed your heritage (or group) its history, for comparative purposes. Thus, instead of me responding with an answer to each of your observations, about black people, how about you give your explanation for why African behave this way or do or do not do things…..presumably as well as others do or do not?

If you tell me that black people commit violent crime disproportionately in America, that’s an observation that is probably true. However, an observation without explanation is really not education. The education comes in the form of WHY? So you can site all types of data and statistics about black people, but you are not educating anyone. You are simply making observations, but everything thing that manifest has a REASON that explains it. So YOU tell me, what is the explanation, in your opinion, of your observations? Now, as you noted, peoples opinion rarely change, and I as assuming that you projected when you made that statement. So I answering you will serve no purpose for those who already have their own explanation, as I am sure you do, but may fear exploring due to what it might EXPOSE.

You see, racism is like an exam (not saying that you are racist). People, though the years, learned consciously or subconsciously the questions that are on the test, in order to get a passing grade. They learned this by hearing people give the wrong answers, which lead to them failing the racism test. So now, people know what to say and what not to say, to pass the test for them, if not for others. So given that no one wants to be exposed as a racist by failing the “what you said” exam, people have managed to convince themselves that they are not racist because they have avoided saying things that are known to be examples of racism. This is why many people stick with OBSERVATION and do not provide EXPLANATION, because in explaining they may very well say something’s and become exposed. Thus, they are content with negative observations about black people, attempting to discredit or caste aspersion upon any explanation that involves EXTERNAL stimuli, but yet, to cowardly to expose their INTERNAL causation/explanation for the observations made.

[ckhthankgod]

Originally Posted by Indentured Servant

You are correct in regards to many emotional topics, in that people emotionally invested rarely change their minds. I cannot say that it has ever been a goal of mine to change their peoples opinion on race. My goal is simply exposer or exposing. That’s it’s. After the exposure is completed, I am satisfied because any subsequent actions and belief is outside of my sphere of influence.

That said, you introduced yourself by giving me a background of yourself, when this discussion is not really about, your, or me, as individuals. It’s really not germane to introduce who side you usually take and what your beliefs have traditionally been, because this topic is…..again….not about YOU. However, since you made the topic about YOU, I will entertain the digression.

Remember when I said that I am about explanation and not observation? Do you remember when I said that if one just keeps asking why, to every observation or answer they come up with, then one can traverse to the subconscious root of their argument and beliefs? You made several observations about Africans, the impact of Africans in other places, Liberians etc. You also juxtaposed your heritage (or group) its history, for comparative purposes. Thus, instead of me responding with an answer to each of your observations, about black people, how about you give your explanation for why African behave this way or do or do not do things…..presumably as well as others do or do not?

If you tell me that black people commit violent crime disproportionately in America, that’s an observation that is probably true. However, an observation without explanation is really not education. The education comes in the form of WHY? So you can site all types of data and statistics about black people, but you are not educating anyone. You are simply making observations, but everything thing that manifest has a REASON that explains it. So YOU tell me, what is the explanation, in your opinion, of your observations? Now, as you noted, peoples opinion rarely change, and I as assuming that you projected when you made that statement. So I answering you will serve no purpose for those who already have their own explanation, as I am sure you do, but may fear exploring due to what it might EXPOSE.

You see, racism is like an exam (not saying that you are racist). People, though the years, learned consciously or subconsciously the questions that are on the test, in order to get a passing grade. They learned this by hearing people give the wrong answers, which lead to them failing the racism test. So now, people know what to say and what not to say, to pass the test for them, if not for others. So given that no one wants to be exposed as a racist by failing the “what you said” exam, people have managed to convince themselves that they are not racist because they have avoided saying things that are known to be examples of racism. This is why many people stick with OBSERVATION and do not provide EXPLANATION, because in explaining they may very well say something’s and become exposed. Thus, they are content with negative observations about black people, attempting to discredit or caste aspersion upon any explanation that involves EXTERNAL stimuli, but yet, to cowardly to expose their INTERNAL causation/explanation for the observations made.

Wow...........! Too deep.

I will say that countries in Africa like Ghana, Senegal and recently Angola, among a some others have been doing fine or have been making some progress. What kills me is that african immigrants actually are the most educated immigrant group in the US, but you won't see that on the nightly news and that go beyond the US, but also in England and Canada as well.

As for violent crime, most occurs within the same race considering the social realities in terms of housing patterns and social patterns. Again, what kills me is that crime is viewed in terms of just the nightly news shooting, but no one puts the same stigma on the drunk or reckless driver that kills someone else or even themselves, if not more people. Alcohol related vehicle fatalities kill about 1 and a half times more people than homicides, historically speaking, but where is the outrage? Is due to the stereotype as to who is more likely to do such things? Basically, all of us have our cross to bear in terms of crime.

As for the comparison of different groups, I think people don't take into account the realities of the different histories and social realities of said groups either. That alone plays a huge part as to why many things are the way they are. Again, another thing that is interesting is that 70% of Whites descend from people that came after the Civil War, give or take. Then, you have the other fact that many of the newer immigrant groups didn't come until the Civil Rights Movement and the braek down of immigrat restrictions, which most likely go hand and hand, took place. Considering that Black people played a huge part in both abolition and Civil Rights, which in turn, broke down barriers not only for themselves, but for countless others, maybe people need to be more considerate about how they view people. So, there are things to consider when playing the "comparison card".

[pirate_lafitte]

Originally Posted by Indentured Servant

You are correct in regards to many emotional topics, in that people emotionally invested rarely change their minds. I cannot say that it has ever been a goal of mine to change their peoples opinion on race. My goal is simply exposer or exposing. That’s it’s. After the exposure is completed, I am satisfied because any subsequent actions and belief is outside of my sphere of influence.

That said, you introduced yourself by giving me a background of yourself, when this discussion is not really about, your, or me, as individuals. It’s really not germane to introduce who side you usually take and what your beliefs have traditionally been, because this topic is…..again….not about YOU. However, since you made the topic about YOU, I will entertain the digression.

Remember when I said that I am about explanation and not observation? Do you remember when I said that if one just keeps asking why, to every observation or answer they come up with, then one can traverse to the subconscious root of their argument and beliefs? You made several observations about Africans, the impact of Africans in other places, Liberians etc. You also juxtaposed your heritage (or group) its history, for comparative purposes. Thus, instead of me responding with an answer to each of your observations, about black people, how about you give your explanation for why African behave this way or do or do not do things…..presumably as well as others do or do not?

If you tell me that black people commit violent crime disproportionately in America, that’s an observation that is probably true. However, an observation without explanation is really not education. The education comes in the form of WHY? So you can site all types of data and statistics about black people, but you are not educating anyone. You are simply making observations, but everything thing that manifest has a REASON that explains it. So YOU tell me, what is the explanation, in your opinion, of your observations? Now, as you noted, peoples opinion rarely change, and I as assuming that you projected when you made that statement. So I answering you will serve no purpose for those who already have their own explanation, as I am sure you do, but may fear exploring due to what it might EXPOSE.

You see, is like an exam (not saying that you are racist). People, though the years, learned consciously or subconsciously the questions that are on the test, in order to get a passing grade. They learned this by hearing people give the wrong answers, which lead to them failing the test. So now, people know what to say and what not to say, to pass the test for them, if not for others. So given that no one wants to be exposed as a racist by failing the “what you said” exam, people have managed to convince themselves that they are not racist because they have avoided saying things that are known to be examples of . This is why many people stick with OBSERVATION and do not provide EXPLANATION, because in explaining they may very well say something’s and become exposed. Thus, they are content with negative observations about black people, attempting to discredit or caste aspersion upon any explanation that involves EXTERNAL stimuli, but yet, to cowardly to expose their INTERNAL causation/explanation for the observations made.

You just made a very wise point. Education comes in the form of asking "WHY?"
Many people don't want to ask why. For some people, it is just too easy to make observations and then not ask why. That is part of what upsets me. It is like many people would rather be uneducated.