[pirate_lafitte]

Originally Posted by ckhthankgod

I think that is the case with many Northern cities that have had better days, but aren't total losses. With people looking to go back into cities and more walkable environments, I think cities like Muskegon and Muskegon Heights can improve. I think this current economic state makes people think about not getting caught up in the hype of living in certain places and this if they can properly research their options in terms of places to live, many places can make a comeback.

Your explanation speaks alot about the potential of the northern cities. These cities developed because certain industries were there. Detroit with cars, Pittsburgh and Gary with steel, Milwaukee with beer and motorcycles. Like you said, these cities are not total losses. There is still alot of old architecture around in places like Buffalo, Detroit, and Milwaukee. Aesthetically, these places look pretty nice. Go to Atlanta or Charlotte and you would be hard-pressed to find such gems. Not to mention these cities are not walkable. Not only that, Atlanta almost went into ruin over its water problems. There is plenty of freshwater in Michigan, especially around Western Michigan. You also have real lakes in addition Lake Michigan. Alot of people in GA like to fish. You could do that in Michigan. These places have the potential to make a comeback. What it is going to take is looking into the long-term. Alot of companies started going to the south for short-term gains. I am not saying there shouldn't be industrial jobs in the South, because it would help alot of people, but investing in long-term growth, rather than the short-term is something that make a better place to live over all. Many companies that went to the South capitalized on the relatively low wages and the somewhat feudalistic labor practices. Sure, there was short term growth, but it left many people in the North without jobs. Now some companies are looking for even more quick fixes, if you know what I mean. The old industrial age may have gone into decline. This is where new companies need to take that place. The green industry is starting to catch on. You can't always outsource your green jobs, especially construction. I believe if Michigan did that on a larger scale, this could be a big comeback.

[ckhthankgod]

Originally Posted by pirate_lafitte

Your explanation speaks alot about the potential of the northern cities. These cities developed because certain industries were there. Detroit with cars, Pittsburgh and Gary with steel, Milwaukee with beer and motorcycles. Like you said, these cities are not total losses. There is still alot of old architecture around in places like Buffalo, Detroit, and Milwaukee. Aesthetically, these places look pretty nice. Go to Atlanta or Charlotte and you would be hard-pressed to find such gems. Not to mention these cities are not walkable. Not only that, Atlanta almost went into ruin over its water problems. There is plenty of freshwater in Michigan, especially around Western Michigan. You also have real lakes in addition Lake Michigan. Alot of people in GA like to fish. You could do that in Michigan. These places have the potential to make a comeback. What it is going to take is looking into the long-term. Alot of companies started going to the south for short-term gains. I am not saying there shouldn't be industrial jobs in the South, because it would help alot of people, but investing in long-term growth, rather than the short-term is something that make a better place to live over all. Many companies that went to the South capitalized on the relatively low wages and the somewhat feudalistic labor practices. Sure, there was short term growth, but it left many people in the North without jobs. Now some companies are looking for even more quick fixes, if you know what I mean. The old industrial age may have gone into decline. This is where new companies need to take that place. The green industry is starting to catch on. You can't always outsource your green jobs, especially construction. I believe if Michigan did that on a larger scale, this could be a big comeback.

I totally agree and where I live, that seems to be what they are looking towards. I think this program/movement by Van Jones is something cities like Muskegon, Flint, Detroit, Syracuse, Buffalo, Cleveland and so on, need: Building a green economy strong enough to lift people out of poverty — Green For All I think such movements are especially important due to the change in demographics over the years.

As mentioned, the infrastructure is already there and hopefully, people can capitalize off of it by having the community at large become a player in this movement.

I think the key is that people need to look to start their own businesses, as companies are moving away and downsizing. Small business might be the key to jump starting the green movement and the economy, at large.

[chiroptera]

I live in Flint (by all accounts like Muskegon, only worse) and while I agree starting businesses and being entrepreneurial is a great idea, you need to have a client base, with money to spend. And I say this as a small business owner myself.

In Flint at any rate, people flock to dollar stores and WalMart. They go to Home Despot instead of smaller hardware stores, chain and fast food restaurants instead of independent ones. In my five years in Flint proper, I've seen many indepedent businesses and restaurants close up, while more chain restaurants have opened on Miller Rd and a WalMart Supercenter with all the other cheapie satellite chains (Kohls etc) get built in Grand Blanc.

There's a great farmers market here, but it seems only a small core of regulars buy from there. There are some great art galleries too, but people from the suburbs (and their decorators) go to Target for wall art and stuff like that. I could go on and on with examples but from my perspective, here you have a community as a whole that is blue collar rather than progressive. Either people simply don't have the money to drive across town to buy produce from the farmers market, or if they have the money, don't seem willing to spend it at locally-own ed businesses. We are getting exactly what we are paying for: the slow death of small, locally owned businesses, and an increase in low paid chain store employees - for those lucky enough to have jobs. And most jobs like that are very low paid with no benefits and no health care. The county voted down a paltry millage to support Hurley hospital - those in the suburbs who could easily afford between $100 and $200 per year increase on property taxes voted it down.

I guess what I'm saying is, for green/small business to really take effect, you need a population willing and able to support it. I have not seen that happen in Genesee county, at any rate.

Originally Posted by ckhthankgod

I totally agree and where I live, that seems to be what they are looking towards. I think this program/movement by Van Jones is something cities like Muskegon, Flint, Detroit, Syracuse, Buffalo, Cleveland and so on, need: Building a green economy strong enough to lift people out of poverty — Green For All I think such movements are especially important due to the change in demographics over the years.

As mentioned, the infrastructure is already there and hopefully, people can capitalize off of it by having the community at large become a player in this movement.

I think the key is that people need to look to start their own businesses, as companies are moving away and downsizing. Small business might be the key to jump starting the green movement and the economy, at large.

[ckhthankgod]

Originally Posted by chiroptera

I live in Flint (by all accounts like Muskegon, only worse) and while I agree starting businesses and being entrepreneurial is a great idea, you need to have a client base, with money to spend. And I say this as a small business owner myself.

In Flint at any rate, people flock to dollar stores and WalMart. They go to Home Despot instead of smaller hardware stores, chain and fast food restaurants instead of independent ones. In my five years in Flint proper, I've seen many indepedent businesses and restaurants close up, while more chain restaurants have opened on Miller Rd and a WalMart Supercenter with all the other cheapie satellite chains (Kohls etc) get built in Grand Blanc.

There's a great farmers market here, but it seems only a small core of regulars buy from there. There are some great art galleries too, but people from the suburbs (and their decorators) go to Target for wall art and stuff like that. I could go on and on with examples but from my perspective, here you have a community as a whole that is blue collar rather than progressive. Either people simply don't have the money to drive across town to buy produce from the farmers market, or if they have the money, don't seem willing to spend it at locally-own ed businesses. We are getting exactly what we are paying for: the slow death of small, locally owned businesses, and an increase in low paid chain store employees - for those lucky enough to have jobs. And most jobs like that are very low paid with no benefits and no health care. The county voted down a paltry millage to support Hurley hospital - those in the suburbs who could easily afford between $100 and $200 per year increase on property taxes voted it down.

I guess what I'm saying is, for green/small business to really take effect, you need a population willing and able to support it. I have not seen that happen in Genesee county, at any rate.

That's a good point and I think it comes down to the community seeing how such opportunities include and benefit them, especially in a city like Flint. When you think of the "green" movement, a city like Flint seems to be the antithesis of this in terms of being predominately Black, with a small higher educational presence and being overwhelmingly blue-collar. When you include more people in this movement of a more green economy, I think more people of various backgrounds will jump on board, considering that the future economy will be leaning more and more towards such employment. That's why I feel a movement like Green For All, will be essential, especially in cities like Flint, once people can see the benefits that come with it.

[chiroptera]

Excellent points - but I think it has little to do with race/class/income level. Except perhaps for those who are on a very limited income, who of course are going to shop wherever they get the most bang for the buck.

I'm in remodeling/redecorating, and spend a lot of time in the "nicer" places surrounding Flint. Grand Blanc and so on. Most McMansion dwellers personify the definition of the provincial and blue-collar mindset, no matter how upscale the subdivision or humungous the house. They love their WalMart, their Kohls, their Sams Club. A decent book store would curl up and die in Grand Blanc.

From Miriam Webster: Provincial: a person of local or restricted interests or outlook b: a person lacking urban polish or refinement.

I really like Michigan a lot, except for this. I'm probably an iconoclast but given the choice of only two places to live - Flint and Grand Blanc - I'd choose Flint every time. I know, I'm weird.

The urbane, interesting and progressive people I've met since moving to Michigan have lived right in the city of Flint. Or it little pockets of Fenton, Clarkston, etc. And there's just little pockets of them. Selling "green" or anything out of the blue collar/automotive box is going to be tough...paradigms change slowly in these parts. At least that's my perception, for what it's worth.

Originally Posted by ckhthankgod

That's a good point and I think it comes down to the community seeing how such opportunities include and benefit them, especially in a city like Flint. When you think of the "green" movement, a city like Flint seems to be the antithesis of this in terms of being predominately Black, with a small higher educational presence and being overwhelmingly blue-collar. When you include more people in this movement of a more green economy, I think more people of various backgrounds will jump on board, considering that the future economy will be leaning more and more towards such employment. That's why I feel a movement like Green For All, will be essential, especially in cities like Flint, once people can see the benefits that come with it.

[baystater]

Originally Posted by pirate_lafitte

Not only that, Atlanta almost went into ruin over its water problems. There is plenty of freshwater in Michigan, especially around Western Michigan. You also have real lakes in addition Lake Michigan. Alot of people in GA like to fish. You could do that in Michigan. These places have the potential to make a comeback.

This one of the major reasons why I think Michigan and some of the other upper Midwestern states will make a comeback in major way in a decade or so. Clean and more importantly drinkable water is everything. Yeah people don't particularly like the cold weather in the northern half of the U.S. But it's that cold/cooler weather that allows for a slower rate of evaporation and retention of water. There are some countries on this earth that would kill for the gift the U.S. and Canada have been given in the form of the great lakes.
Michigan and the other Midwestern states, also NY state, and the Erie area of Pennsylvania have a much greater capacity of supporting a large population naturally and/or little augmentation from human ingenuity. Look, the rate of growth of the southern U.S. was great this past.....let's say 15 years or so. But when you look at the shortages of water ( Ex. I believe Texas is having a pretty severe drought at the moment) I don't think the southern states (east or west) can handle much more, if any, growth of population...............or at least not with out some major augmentations by the hand of man. That's going to be expensive. Probably prohibitively expensive. And while I understand why businesses and jobs went south. I now feel that some businesses are going to see the ramifications of moving a rather large population (migrating workers/migrating retirees) of people into an area that can't support that populations needs. There are just going to be all kinds of problems (not just water shortages) that may make them think of returning to the north and to their "ready made" cities.
To be honest, I could be wrong in my assumptions but...........I don't think so. I think people and business will head north in the end because life overall will be easier for them.

Btw. To be honest I don't mind all the negativity out there about Michigan, this is because overall in the shorter term it will make it much cheaper to get in on the ground floor.

What it is going to take is looking into the long-term. Alot of companies started going to the south for short-term gains. I am not saying there shouldn't be industrial jobs in the South, because it would help alot of people, but investing in long-term growth, rather than the short-term is something that make a better place to live over all. Many companies that went to the South capitalized on the relatively low wages and the somewhat feudalistic labor practices. Sure, there was short term growth, but it left many people in the North without jobs. Now some companies are looking for even more quick fixes, if you know what I mean. The old industrial age may have gone into decline. This is where new companies need to take that place. The green industry is starting to catch on. You can't always outsource your green jobs, especially construction. I believe if Michigan did that on a larger scale, this could be a big comeback.

Actually I think Michigan would be a good place for a lot or research and development of all/any types of product. You have some of the best schools in the country with a good brain trust. If you can get companies to put alot of R & D facilities there and keep you graduates there. I think you would have a good start on really pushing Michigan forward. Not just a continuation of the old industrial empire..........but a place of innovation and new technology. Of course you should never put all of you eggs in one basket. As the decline of the U.S. auto market has shown. But put those eggs in a whole bunch of basket. Banking, financial industry, agricultural, manufacturing, medical, etc. etc.