[michsnowlvr]

Originally Posted by gr8pyrz

I think it really depends on what area of MI someone lives in as to their perspective. SE MI, south of Detroit, although hit hard is not showing near the signs that other areas are. Same with the northern suburbs.....you go up there, you see no sign of the recession at all.

Downriver we are still seeing new Mustangs and Dodge Chargers on the roads all the time, the store I work in does an incredible business even on Mondays, the restaurants are still busy even during the week......there are still a LOT of people employed and doing just fine.

Our self-employed friends run a more luxury oriented service business and have seen barely a blip in their business. We have a steady stream of customers in the store that are buying travel supplies for trips.....

Even the movie openings that are happening during this recession accross the country are proving there is plenty of money flowing.

We are the only ones in our social group that are struggling because my husband is a carpenter (now going back to school for criminal justice for a career change). Everyone else is booking trips, buying big screens and are holding steady with 2-income households.

I just think it depends on the surroundings. Once you take a logical look around, it's really not that bad everywhere !

I agree. I get so annoyed when someone on here says theres a "sad" or "depressed" feeling in MI. Its a bunch of nonsense. I work in the public, see tons of people every day, plus summer is party season so been busy attending many of those. Also, go out to the beach, bars, restaurants, wherever, I see people having a good time, not people feeling miserable. And money is being spent on non-necessities, just not as carefree as before. MI is dealing with very high unemployment, yes that is gonna cause big issues for some folks...but as for the people in MI looking "sad"...pure B.S.

[Orwelleaut]

Originally Posted by MittenDweller82

No, i'm not referring to your HS drop out who's unable to obtain employment but your ivy league grads who have started such ventures as "facebook" and other .com start ups. Eventually this will be the generation that will determine the direction of our recovery.

I hate to say this, but I'm not referring to the HS dropouts either. I'm referring to those with a recent Bachelor's Degree. The dropout types rarely live with their parents, as most of them are parents themselves. Instead of living with their parents, they tend to get Section 8 and HUD Vouchers, especially if they have drug addiction issues. The dropouts of Generation Y are a horrible drain on the tax dollars of us working X'ers, as they tend to have an entitlement mentality. The college grads of Generation Y are the bright light of Generation Y, the folks who have goals and a work ethic, and too much pride to raise a bunch of bastard children on a bunch of Government handouts.

[Ummagumma]

Originally Posted by Indentured Servant

.

...

People need to realize that Michigan represents the REAL American economy. It’s the production centric economy that made this nation what it was. If Michigan is failing, then the nation will soon follow.

I agree, unfortunately. The American economy is 70% consumer supported. Since the goods that consumers buy are mostly produced overseas, there's been a constant flow of goods one way and jobs+money the other over the last couple of decades. Basically it's the transfer of wealth from the US to the goods-producing countries. If you only buy and do not sell enough to cover your purchases (i.e. have a major trade deficit) you lose your wealth and become indebted to the seller. As more and more decent paying jobs left, and more and more real money moved out of the country, especially accelerating in the last 7-9 years, we finally are nearing the breaking point (and I don't think this particular crisis is that point yet, it's just a forewarning).

This is exactly how the US got wealthy, by producing and selling the goods to the European nations during and after WWI, when their production all but ceased. It left previously uber wealthy states of Germany, France, and to some extend Great Britain on the verge of bankruptcy while the US got most of their gold reserves. Now the history is repeating itself.

The service industry is not going to help us because it's entirely dependent on domestic buyers so as they get poorer the ability to make money in service drops (unlike some tourist heavens in, say, Europe that make money on foreigners so they have a real trade going). Neither the "money" industry is going to be of much help - eventually the banks and the big shot traders will move to where the real wealth is. (Just look at England now).

Now, I don't think that the US will turn into Zimbabwe, as the country with some 300mln people, vast natural resources and decent higher education system definitely has potential, and when the earnings drop low enough for it to be competitive with China and India some jobs will come back . However the life will be hard for those of us "lucky" enough to live during this transition period.

Of course the gov't may decide to switch from "free trade" policies to "fair trade" but this is not very likely - after all we do have the best government money can buy...

[Bhaalspawn]

Originally Posted by Ummagumma

As more and more decent paying jobs left, and more and more real money moved out of the country, especially accelerating in the last 7-9 years, we finally are nearing the breaking point (and I don't think this particular crisis is that point yet, it's just a forewarning).

What I find rather interesting is that many people predict that we will have an economic recovery, eventually, and that others, such you and I, predict that this long recession is merely the beginning of what will be a transformative depression.

The funny thing is that the people who predict that blue skies will be here again cannot provide an explanation as to why the economy will recover and what the basis for that recovery would be. They merely say that the economy will recover because it has always recovered in the past. They say this in spite of the fact that the U.S. does not have a long history of widespread economic prosperity (perhaps just for a mere 60 year time period) and that the world and our nation's situation is always changing. Our nation and the nature of our economy is very different than it was 50 or even 30 years ago. Given that, I really don't perceive any sort of metaphysical reason why the United States could not transform itself into a third world country or at least into one much less prosperous than it is today.

[michigan83]

I'm employed. Not to brag or anything.

[Cliffie]

A conservative Republican (Engler) is largely responsible for the ungodly mess Granholm inherited, my friend. And NO governor can wave a wand and make the unions disappear. Workers have to pull their socks up and do it themselves.

[MTUCache]

Originally Posted by Orwelleaut

I hate to say this, but I'm not referring to the HS dropouts either. I'm referring to those with a recent Bachelor's Degree. The dropout types rarely live with their parents, as most of them are parents themselves. Instead of living with their parents, they tend to get Section 8 and HUD Vouchers, especially if they have drug addiction issues. The dropouts of Generation Y are a horrible drain on the tax dollars of us working X'ers, as they tend to have an entitlement mentality. The college grads of Generation Y are the bright light of Generation Y, the folks who have goals and a work ethic, and too much pride to raise a bunch of bastard children on a bunch of Government handouts.

To kind of combine both the threads of conversation here (political and living-with-your-parents):

I simply can't tell you how frustrating it is (was) being unemployed in Michigan, listening to the politicians use the situation as a means to push their own social or political agendas.

Everytime I hear Granholm or Obama (and no, this isn't a Dem/Rep debate, Reps have been doing it too) spouting off their garbage about re-training or more education it makes me want to scream.

Most of the people laid off right now aren't unemployed because they don't have their GED. They don't need to be "re-trained" on how to build freaking windmills. They're skilled tradesmen. They're college educated. My wife and I were both laid off last year. Both of us were engineers (one manufacturing, one construction). There's no way in hell someone is telling me that my wife or I need to "go back to school" in order to find a more realistic career choice. We've dedicated our lives to these professions. We're good at them, and this country needs (and is going to need) more engineers in the future, not less.

None of that made a difference when I was forced to rent out my condo and move my family into my parent's house. Yes, I'm working now (out of state, away from my family), but while I was laid off the last thing I wanted to hear was someone else's story about how they abandoned their twenty year career in order to go back to school and learn how to install solar panels on peoples' dog houses. Those stories may be cute, and they may even get some votes, but they're not fixing anything.

[MittenDweller82]

Originally Posted by michigan83

Unfortunately, if we are going to have a true recovery nationally, I think it's going to take more than dot-com startups.

We have to rebuild our manufacturing base, and Michigan is at the heart of the problem. If we don't actually make things, there's not going to be a recovery to former times. Like the above poster said... the rest of the Nation will follow Michigan, and those Ivy Leaguers aren't going to find prosperity anywhere.

At that point, maybe the elites will stick around. Because the grass won't be greener anywhere else.

The country will follow Michigan!!!?!?

Are you serious? 90% of what you use in your life is made in China sir, and China is already being undercut by other small Asian countries. You want manufacturing BACK in Michigan? You want to RE create the storm that has put over a million Michigander's out of work...sounds lovely. Since globalization took hold shortly after the .com bubble burst in the late 90's America hasn't been the source for manufacturing, in fact, MOST middle class nations (look at the European Union) have also been in the same predicament since that time. You see, you want to have your 20/hr pay yet manufacture products that a nation full of unemployed people can afford...well thats not going to happen. "Things" of course will be made, but not in the US and most certainly not in Michigan.

Since you missed the memo about the national economy during the last decade I"ll expand briefly: Globalization initially induced a massive exportation of labor, (well, that and NAFTA) and business became increasingly competitive, each trying to undercut each other. (Look at the south and their furniture mills of the 70's and 80's that are gone). China and Malaysia will never have the same humanitarian laws as the US so they can get away with paying workers 1/hr to make a high quality product. Not only did most manufactured goods fall captive to this, but now auto companies are springing up in China, and they are working furiously to enter the American market with their 10K SUV's and 5K cars. My father worked for a small manufacturing plant in Dexter for 20 years, by 2000 Chinese companies could make the same precision engineered engine component for HALF the cost they could AND closer tolerances (meaning better quality). If you still doubt that manufacturing is nothing but history..please research the stock market.


You actually think BILLIONS of dollars in losses will come back to Michigan? That companies will come running back after relocating their ventures outside of the US to battle unions and anti-progressive rhetoric by state government to set up shop again? Nuts my friend, nuts. Its called: progression, progression BEYOND manufacturing, the next market that will make many people wealthy: green energy. Its why dear Granholm is trying so desperately to establish Michigan as a place to make it happen...but so many other states are so far ahead of the game.

I'm a Michigan native and love what Michigan is but people that have your view is the reason why Michigan is so far behind the country. Take yourself outside of the box, hop on a plane or train (whatever you like) and see that there is so much more happening in this country than a battle to keep a dying industry afloat: people are living, cities are expanding and few outside of Michigan care about "manufacturing". No, "things" won't recover to former times, our economy will be smaller, much more competitive and the areas of the country that grasp green energy and tax laws that are business friendly will be boom areas. Can you honestly say Michigan will have this before the transition is over? Sorry, but go back to your rock and cover up with it. Hearing things like this makes me angry, sorry for the rant I'm done!

[YAZ]

Folks in MI can't afford "green energy". The technology has been around for decades; there's a reason why we don't use it: COST.

I truly believe my poor beloved Michigan has limited chances for recovery.

There is hope though.

Raw materials like lumber, salt, yes... salt, and all that good stuff to make cement and concrete.

Farming.

Tourism.

Is that outfit still in Saginaw Bay that grows shrimp?

Commercial fishing....even fish farms.


While some "green" would be profitable, I wouldn't put alll of my chips on that hand.

[Ummagumma]

Originally Posted by MittenDweller82

The country will follow Michigan!!!?!?

Are you serious? 90% of what you use in your life is made in China sir, and China is already being undercut by other small Asian countries. You want manufacturing BACK in Michigan? You want to RE create the storm that has put over a million Michigander's out of work...sounds lovely. Since globalization took hold shortly after the .com bubble burst in the late 90's America hasn't been the source for manufacturing, in fact, MOST middle class nations (look at the European Union) have also been in the same predicament since that time. You see, you want to have your 20/hr pay yet manufacture products that a nation full of unemployed people can afford...well thats not going to happen. "Things" of course will be made, but not in the US and most certainly not in Michigan.

You actually think BILLIONS of dollars in losses will come back to Michigan? That companies will come running back after relocating their ventures outside of the US ...

With you so far...

to battle unions and anti-progressive rhetoric by state government to set up shop again? Nuts my friend, nuts. Its called: progression, progression BEYOND manufacturing, the next market that will make many people wealthy: green energy.

Using your own words, " Nuts my friend, nuts.".

If you don't sell you can't buy. No country ever got rich by selling know-how; you need product. Product may be the technology (turbines, solar panels etc.) or even pure energy. Guess what, that product can always be manufactured elsewhere for less. The current global market scheme will always force the countries into a race to the bottom, as the poorer country with no restrictive safety / environment laws always wins. As long as the so called "free market" remains unchallenged, it would create mass poverty and isolated concentration of wealth in a few hands wherever the middle class used to exist.

Its why dear Granholm is trying so desperately to establish Michigan as a place to make it happen...but so many other states are so far ahead of the game.

I'm a Michigan native and love what Michigan is but people that have your view is the reason why Michigan is so far behind the country. Take yourself outside of the box, hop on a plane or train (whatever you like) and see that there is so much more happening in this country than a battle to keep a dying industry afloat: people are living, cities are expanding and few outside of Michigan care about "manufacturing". No, "things" won't recover to former times, our economy will be smaller, much more competitive and the areas of the country that grasp green energy and tax laws that are business friendly will be boom areas. Can you honestly say Michigan will have this before the transition is over? Sorry, but go back to your rock and cover up with it. Hearing things like this makes me angry, sorry for the rant I'm done!

The "business friendly" in the current global market means no protection for the environment, consumers, or workers. As long as there's someone poorer than you willing to work for less, the businesses can move at will. The "green energy" is not going to be the new base of economy - it's like the electric energy back in the late 1800's, very important and the way of the future but not limited to one country and therefore can't be used as the base on which to trade with others.

I remember reading, some 15-20 years ago, about the very similar arguments being made in the Great Britain, as they were quickly losing their manufacturing base; only in their case instead of "green energy" it was the "financial products and know-how"; the whole county was going to survive by moving the money around. Now, they are on the brink of economic meltdown.

As long as there's no protective tariffs and regulations that restrict poverty-based competition, poverty will rule. Don't think we'd be a 3rd world country, but bad enough. Get used to it.